Antares

Vitalii, I am not a friend of opendao, I have never seen him. I remember you were qigong teacher (with no lineage) few years ago but now you teach and sell neidan (no lineage, no school in China). You have no lineage and can not prove your qualification. You do not respect other people and your goal is business. Sad but true ©

You think that supporting scam on the TTB is good idea? You should understand that Vitalli posts here not in order to discuss it but to promote his self made taoi$$m based on books and qigong seminars which he wants to sell here as "tradition". This is sad how some people greed for money and do harm to others

When you read Zhang San Feng' words about the method you always should remember that: The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng: Nobody really knows whether or not one of the numerous persons called "Master Zhang San Feng" actually wrote these short treatises or commentaries attributed to him. They may have been documents compiled, redacted, edited, or composed by persons associated with a Taoist school where Master Zhang San Feng is respected or revered. They may have been compiled or written hundreds of years after Master Zhang San Feng died or disappeared. This is also true for writings attributed to Lao Tzu. The official Taoist cannon consists of thousands of documents composed over many centuries since 500 BCE. The documents are part of the extensive Taoist written tradition, and the exact author of a particular document is sometimes uncertain. --------------------- This is actually the way how qigong people distort Tradition. I see that these ZSF's(?) words were about Xing method. Now the question why Vitalii posts here so much about Da Zuo and Xing methods. And almost nothing at all about how to cultivate Ming I would prefer to read traditional texts rather than somebody's opinions who has no connection to the authentic Tradition.

In theory yes, but practically it's always better to have a teacher who can guide you. But his DVDs seem great. Normally they start off with yuan jing and they say transmission is the must. Only alchemy replenishes yuan jing. It's like secret method and cannot be transmitted through book or video they say. Not sure about yuan qi (yuan jing nourishes yuan qi but may be the other way around). Does he cover this theory in his books? (Sometime they can only tell it is what you can get but how it works in reality?)

Does he teach Yuan Chi method in his books?

Okey, but where Ming practice in your school? What is the name of this practice? Is it mentioned in any text? Just wonder.

Vitalii posted:

Is it the same what Kundalini within the body is?

Ah, yeah, I missed this one. I can not agree that' right. I am looking forward to hear about ming. I heard it correlates with channels - "water" which feeds energy in the body? Thanks.

And it seems strange for me personally. Now there are many differenet sects among asian traditions (western branches) who state they have something special what other ones don't have. There are many examples when people receive "transmission" and get some transpersonal experience but not always they can control it and not every transmission is "clean". If person can not regulate his/her mind and there is no technique for it even then it is very very strange. I would think twice if it worths to deal with such organizations. There are many authentic schools who have teached it for centuries and it is based on human experience and then somebody tells it is wrong as method. Very strange

opendao I wanted to say it was unknown for the rest of the world until now. And that there in NOT only one Taoism among spiritual traditions, it was closed and it is still closed. We know nothing about contemporary taoism and teachers. And it was supressed after cultural revolution. I only compared it with other well known traditions. And your teacher and WLP school was not known in the West. We can't trace it back the history of this school and if there were spiritual achievements. I have not heard about anyone who got sick by the practice of seated meditation Ahhh, NO ONE SAYS HERE THAT IT IS MAIN METHOD. I wrote that it is one of the methods among many others and that there are MANY preparatory techniques follow by seated meditation. Da Zuo is may be only one of them for BEGINNERS and there could many others more advanced. We quoted few excerpts but could you quote taoist texts where it is said that meditations are NOT USED AT ALL? Bc you wrote that "It what Neidan thinks about any meditation". But you have to explain first what is the Ming. Because we talk about some idea without definiton. I'll put it like that, you say: "we have ming but will not tell you what it is but you should buy it...". I ask what is it but you can not explain what you offer. Now one has to go faraway to your place and spend a lot money without knowing what he is going to get. May be it is just selling some idea, how we know? I have another idea of this. Post heaven and pre-heaven are our usual persobal awareness and pure perception beyond it. How somebody can give you another perception if you can not regulate your mind and breath can you explain it please? I just can not understand this. And I do not say it is main method once again

You said that yuan qi can't be percieved directly. So what are the signs of restored yuan jing could you describe? We have to determine what we are talking about. Otherwise it would be speculation of words which no one really realizes. These definitions come from ancient culture and we deal with our understandings. Or we should look for some analogies in other traditions in order to understand fully what we are talking about . What is Ming and Xing exactly? I don't mean anything like shen or "spirit" or "soul" etc. We have texts here with translations of old Chinese and trying to undesrstand and compare it with the words we use in language at this time. You propose to compare with those ancient texts. Ok. But who really understands those symbols? Chinese tradition was lost and what is the qualification of contemporary masters? For example in India and Tibet there are many authentic unbroken lineages which survived and there is no problem with understandings of texts. The methods I quoted seem very similar in both traditions. You say that was not the method at all. May be you are right, but may be it is only what your teacher says to you. You see where I am coming from. Only one unknown teacher in China says that all this wrong vs many many other masters in alive traditions where this method has been used for centuries. We quoted few excerpts that it was used in Tradition. Of course the transmission is diserable but I do not see where it is said that this method is WRONG or false. I see you are talking about from the perspective of your school. And this is fine. Your teacher has transmission and you have texts. I wonder from a researcher position about your statement that it can not be uderstood from books. There are many methods described in yoga how to regulate breath and quiet the mind and they are known for thousands of years. I understand that you are talking about Taoism here but my query comes from my curiosity. Nothing wrong with Taoisim and your school until you say that all other methods are wrong and that other schools lost authentic method. That's what you actually declare. In yoga there are many preparatory breath techniques which purge channels and bring balance to the mind. There is even the theory that many methods came from India to China and now we have situation that Chinese tradition says that methods of Indian tradition are wrong. I understand that there can be unique method in Taoisim and I only ask to shed the light on this issue because I can see that the method of quieting the mind by regulation of breath is described in both traditons. You say that albeit this method is described it was not the main method. But no one states here that it was. In every authentic tradition one should recieve transmission and there are many preparatory techniques. Quieting the mind is one among them. But you say that according to the texts it was almost prohibited. I did not see where it is said that this method is wrong. I understand that DULL seating is wrong and that it was false method for itself without preparation and if done incorrectly.

May be, but it makes sense when one has real transmission then it would be xing+ming cultivation. If no transmission this will be wrong method for itself.

It's nice to have someone pointing out the true path versus false paths of neidan... So we know where to go, and it's not a secret that no one can learn. But you have to be aware that Opendao points out only approach of Wu Lui Pai school where they begin with Xing and Ming cultivation. There are many other quite authentic schools (not only in Taoism) which begin with Xing cultivation only. That does not mean theirs methods are "false paths", that's just another approach. Even in China there are few sects which begin with Xing cultivation. BTW you were Max' student for few years. Does not he teach ming cultivation method? There is also Ya Mu on the TTB who transmits internal alchemy. You have to read this forum more thoroughly. Up to you where to go and what to practise

I have not stumbled upon such recommendation as "to stop thoughts by will" in any traditional text. Concentrating the mind - yes, usually on the process of breath. In Indian yoga they use mantras. Pranayama and bandhas to regulate post-heaven breath. Of course, this is not Taoist methods but I have no idea about Taoist tradition, I only quoted some translations to show that it was used in China as well among Taoists masters. I am sure it is not only the method and it should not be. This is not the first stage and I can not say it correlates with "building foundation". It is not "foundation" and it is next more advanced stage and requires transmission. But some people practise some preparatory techniques on their own without transmission which are well described in some books. I do not recommend this to anyone as most preferable method. It's always better to find good teacher. But it is not easy to find one who is knowledgeable and inexpensive. There are many teachers who says they know a lot and that they are very knowledgeable but only few of them are worth to deal with. That' why I think people discuss here what they can do on their own. I do what I can do right now and when I find good teacher I will ask for transmission. Personally for it helps to stabilize the shen and I feel more energy, more joy, more love... That's how it works for me

Well, real Neigung must nourish your pre-heaven "treasures". Other neigung systems can give some energy but deplete pre-heaven jing. What does this neigung really do? It seems like qigong exercises for "internal power" and health. I want to be wrong but it might work only with post heaven qi. May be masters practiced something else along with this set for the pre-heaven qi cultivation. It is not explicit in the book what was the method for the alchemy work. It is not in the book imho. This set is only part of the neikung system imho

I have to admit that I never been to China and never spoke to any traditional teacher of Taoism and thus my opinion is based only on what I have read in books. Your teacher says that all those texts are incorrect translations of Taoist scriptures. It's may be true but I can not just trust you and your teacher. I have reasons for that. First of all we don't know what was the true Wu Lu Pai's method in the past and if it correlates with the method they use and teach you now. We do not know situation in Taoist tradition in contemporary China. There are loads of teachers in Asia who teach methods which can not be proved for their authenticity and people have to trust them. Second, I have nothing against your personal experience and I only study different oriental scriptures and I can see many meditations techniques are described there. It's what I said in my previous post. I can give you many links to the yoga scriptures where regulations of breath are described. As for Taoist scriptures I can refer only to the English translations as I do not read Chines. For example here is http://www.egreenway.com/taichichuan/chang1.htm#Lu The Writings Attributed to Master Zhang San Feng: Nobody really knows whether or not one of the numerous persons called "Master Zhang San Feng" actually wrote these short treatises or commentaries attributed to him. They may have been documents compiled, redacted, edited, or composed by persons associated with a Taoist school where Master Zhang San Feng is respected or revered. They may have been compiled or written hundreds of years after Master Zhang San Feng died or disappeared. This is also true for writings attributed to Lao Tzu. The official Taoist cannon consists of thousands of documents composed over many centuries since 500 BCE. The documents are part of the extensive Taoist written tradition, and the exact author of a particular document is sometimes uncertain. Writings on the Tao by Master Chang Sanfeng This extensive collection of documents claims to be based on the excellent work by Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook, 1991. I don't think Mr. Cleary attributed so many texts to Chang Sanfeng. In Internal Alchemy there are also three stages, accumulating the essence and chi is the first stage, opening and closing passages is the second stage, building the foundation and refine the self is the third stage. Begin with the first stage, is basically to purify the mind and to abstain from desire, first close the external three treasures (ear, eye, mouth), and nurture the internal three treasures (essence, chi, spirit). (Section 2) Condense the spirit, means collecting one’s purified mind to enter into the inside. When the mind is not yet purified, don’t close the eyes, first encourage the mind to come back, be cool and indifferent, then bring the mind to the energy center, this is called condensing the spirit. When the spirit is condensed, it is like sitting on top of a tall mountain and looking at the mountains and waters, like putting up a sky lamp lighting up every darkness and obscurity, this is the meaning of condensing the spirit on emptiness. Regulating the breath is not difficult, when the mind-spirit is quiet, following the breath naturally, I only abide in the naturalness, this when combined with spirit lighting downward, is what means by regulating the breath. Regulating the breath, means mixing Yin Qiao Chi with mind’s chi in chi center. Speaking of the Dao in Plain Words Attributed to Zhang Sang-feng Translated by Li Siming, 2011 Sections 1-17, Chinese characters and English translation Condensing the mind under the naval is called condensing the spirit, returning the chi under the naval is called regulating the breath. When spirit leans with breath, abide in natural cleanliness is called “not forgetting”, allow for natural cleanliness is called “not assisting”. Not forgetting and not assisting use silence and softness, breath is active and mind at ease. See nothingness as the place to keep the mind, see dim silence as home for breath and spirit, again and again, purify and purify, all of a sudden spirit and breathe both forgotten, spirit and energy fused. The Yang suddenly arise like one is drunk. True appearing and disappearing, happens when the mystical gate is realized. In scriptures what named as “innate”, “real”, “original” arise from the Yin-Yang furnace, from the dark-unconscious-silence, like one appear from obscurity, you can use this to read Internal Alchemy scriptures. (Section 4) During meditation, the most important is to condense the spirit and regulate the breath, use calmness to bring back order, refrain from assisting and forgetting, none will not gain kungfu by day. Condensing the spirit and regulating the breath, only need flat mind and harmonized energy. When mind is flatten spirit is condensed, when energy is harmonized breath is regulated. The word “flatten” is wonderful, when no wave arise in the mind it is flatten, mind abide in it is called flat, flat is in the center. When the mind is in it, there is no wave. Ancient immortal said: “Regulate the real breath, refine the non-spirit spirit.” Real breath is the breath when the breath stops; non-spirit spirit is the spirit of the spirit. To sum up one need to empty the human mind, embrace the Dao mind, return this Dao mind back to emptiness, dark and silence, save in the center, and one can nurture the real breath, obtain the non-spirit spirit. Commentary on Ancestor Lu's Hundred-Character Tablet Attributed to the Taoist Master Chang San-Feng Nuturing energy, forget words and guard it. Conquer the mind, do nondoing. In activity and quietude, know the source progenitor. There is no thing; whom else do you seek? Real constancy should respond to people; In responding to people, it is essential not to get confused. When you don't get confused, your nature is naturally stable; When your nature is stable, energy naturally returns. When energy returns, Elixir spontaneously crystallizes, In the pot pairing water and fire. Yin and yang arise, alternating over and over again, Everywhere producing the sound of thunder. White clouds assemble on the summit, Sweet dew bathes the polar mountain. Having drunk the wine of longevity, You wander free; who can know you? You sit and listen to the stringless tune, You clearly understand the mechanism of creation. The whole of these twenty verses is a ladder straight to heaven." - Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook. Translated and edited by Thomas Cleary. Boston, Shambhala, 1991. 281 pages. ISBN: 0877735190. p. 185 "Breathing Out - Touching the Root of Heaven, One's heart opens; The Dragon slips by like water.. Breathing In - Standing on the Root of Earth, One's heart is still and deep; The Tiger's claw cannot be moved. As you go on breathing in this frame of mind, with these associations, alternating between movement and stillness, it is important that the focus of your mind does not shift. Let the true breath come and go, a subtle continuum on the brink of existence. Tune the breathing until you get breath without breathing; become one with it, and then the spirit can be solidified and the elixir can be made." - Chang San-Feng, Commentary on Ancestor Lu's Hundred-Character Tablet Translated by Thomas Cleary, Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook, 1991, p. 187. ---------------------------------------------- I personally do not think the translation could be so bad that it is incorrect words in general . And it correlates with yoga ancient texts on meditation. For example Vijnan Bhairav Tantra

Xor, opendao is referring to the authentic texts and his teacher who is lineage holder in Taoist tradition. Other opinions are based on books and other interpretations made by laymen or people who have some experience in qigong. There is the difference between traditional neidan and it's diluted from which is qigong. Latter uses only terminology but not the method of neidan. Another approach is neigong which can use both methods of neidan and qigong. But qigong for itself is limited and works only with post-heaven qi.

Can't argue with you but in the quote above it is not said that any meditation is stupid. It's may be only words against DULL seating akin to diluted Chan' meditations. I do not support Vitalii's point of view but say that many other authentic traditions use "meditations". In Dzogchen or authentic Yoga there are loads of alchemical meditations. "Regulating the mind" is result but that does not mean it could not be used as "technique". It is used in many Asian traditions and could be used in Neidan. The problem is that there are very little amount of authentic Taoist teachers and we can't be sure that you have one. That's good that you say your opinion here but we should know who is your teacher and if he is the real master. I do not say who is right in your arguments but may be both of you mistake in something. We can only believe that you have real transmission. There is another Taoist teacher here on the TTB and he teaches seated meditation. Your opinion is based on interpretation of your school.

Hi, opendao. Thank you for your posts. Could you elaborate a little more this statement on depleting Pre-Heaven essence in qigong sets which do not use visualizations and intensive breath and vigor movements and so on. For example in taichi forms there are slow fluent motions which could build and regulate Post- Heaven qi. What is a cause of depletion Pre-Heaven essence in such cases? I believe it would be so if one does some strenuous actions which go over somebody's limits what requires Pre-heaven qi to remove stress and bring body-mind back to balance but if is done within boundaries of normal mindful activities why it will have negative consequences for Yuan Qi? Every time when we build Hou Tian we deplete Xiang Tian? P.s. Edited later: I see what you mean: the intensive work with Hou Tian (even for health and power issues) hastens the depletion of Originate essence. And it seems that your point is that there is no need to build Hou Tian prior to have experience with Xian Tian. But there is simple issue - if one has weak post heaven qi and one's body is sick or unbalanced how to find way to Xian Tian not having healthy post heaven mind and body? Is it anything about "transmission" which is not in Qigong systems?

Hi, Kinsale. Welcome to the TTB. What neigung are you doing now? DM's from his book?

According to Ron Teeguarden the secret of longevity is in Goji soup and He Shou Wu. http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=542

You don't seem to understand what I wrote about Babaji. It's very simple: 1) The myth of immortal Babaji is coming from kriya yoga 2) Kriya yoga is set of kriyas 3) Kriyas are part of nath tradition but not Babaji's tradition 4) Many people use the name Babaji in order to make their lineage real. 5) You believe only what people write in their books 6) Up to you what to believe to

I editted my previous post and I explained how I know this. That person lived in India for many years and talked to many gurus and no one confirmed that Babaji is person. But it is known that Kriya yoga is coming from nath lineage, so it is simple conclusion that kriyas are nath's tradition techniques and thus Babaji is myth. You said "Not true...". I explained you why Babaji is myth. There is no point to believe in Babaji as immortal person until you meet him in person. Better to let go it and practise. Otherwise those people who make statements about Babaji would not get older and would not die. But as you can see they die. The same is for taoist who say about physical immortality. Have you seen any taoist immortal? What is the point to discuss it on the forum?