Antares

I disagree here. I used to train with teacher which lineage of taiji was verifiable (Cheng Man-Ch'ing) and also he taught neigong which lineage could be verified somehow, btw that was master from USA (master Ahn if you heard may be about him). But I would not say his neigong was authentic. It was quite rough and I would say harmful. I wasted 3 years of my life, money and my qi. Tai Chi form was not harmful but I am not sure where he picked up neigong. He claimed lineage is verifiable and sold it as authentic taiji (but it was tai chi )

Best to choose the IMA neigong from authentic lineage and avoid weird things and people like this one (that's when somebody call it neigong just taking certain things from lineage and doing that pursuing their egoistic goals)

The problem here is that this is open discussion and everyone can join it and express their valuable opinion. This is the downside of the "democracy" when politicians are set up by majority. But the majority is being programmed by politicians. I heard in USA some states are considering the law that when adults "love" toddlers that would be fine and legal. So the issue is who sets up these metrics. Here I used not accurate language I hope you got me what I speak about

But this concerns the "external" De what we talked about in other topic. Also it concerns heart - mind purification and work with 5 elements. There are 5 positive and 5 negative qualities. It is all about that. In neigong you may work with heart - mind and 5 elements as well if you want to make a progress. The other thing is that there are loads of low quality neigong systems which should not be referred to as neigong at all. Somebody just got methods and invented their own system calling it neigong. But as I said neigong is just more power oriented in application, I mean how to strengthen body and produce power from inside outside

what you mean by mental aspect of a training? If you have no foundation in neigong (xing ming training) it will deplete your yuan qi, so in both cases yuan qi must be replenished at the foundation stage. They are based on the same principles and woud not say they ARE VERY different things. From certain stage they will differ of course but both are based on internal qi cultivation. There might be a neigong which does not train yuan qi replenishment and this case one will get in trouble

As I said there are 2 manifestations of De - internal and external. You provided the quote in re to external part of De. People are lazy to read texts carefully and even if they read the whole texts they wont understand what exactly many words imply there, this is not philosophical text which should be realized by post-heaven heart - mind. Also there is more concrete explanation of De which is internal one

really? neigong is more martial it depends what you consider neigong

You think DDJ is not neidan text? There are many Daoist schools, a few just like religion. What is their goal I can only guess. May be they want to get good reincarnation, it depends

I don't think so... I am not sure somebody would explain the world for people of that epoch. That would be nonsense considering that it was not public book. The text was designed especially for future generations and I believe such high-level master could foresee the future. So the main purpose was to leave the knowledge of self-realization in simple words but metaphorically so that evil people could not change it if LaoTzu would use more concrete recommendations. The problem is that the language was different and nowadays it is not easy to get all meanings of the words

Dont you find it is quite strange behavior to make certain assumptions and saying you are your own teacher and then you mislead people about certain things asking to stop this discussion. I hope expansive delusion is not about you. NOW PEACE

Many people are making assumptions that DDJ is philosophical text so they regard it as another philosophical text including the idea of De. But in my opinion this is alchemical text. Read huimingjing which is definitely alchemical text where De has quite alchemical meaning. Anyway, you should not say me what I should do or should not in this thread. You can believe what you want, I dont care to be honest with you

and BTW the term "nourishing De" is used there, just checked it

Now to the amateurish western guesswork of De being something tangible, like qi-substance or ability to think or some tangible-power;). Of course none of these empty guesses are supported by a traditional quote.;) Why not to read huimingjing and shut up!? I think many people are tired of your bla-bla-bla Sorry if the English name for hui... is incorrect, not sure how it is in English PS. Dont even quote me again, not going to argue with you

Interesting, there is pra-slavic word "věra" which nowadays is used as synonym for "belief " and "religion". May be in ancient times there was another meaning of this word

Just imaging there are 1000 doors in front of you and you need to choose the right one. Some people might be travelling from life to life choosing incorrect doors in every life. And this might be limitless process. So practicing without supervision of a knowledgeable teacher is definitely akin to stepping into incorrect door. It may be even more worse then just living "normal " life no practicing at all

Yes, in general I would agree with this point of view. So "nourishing De" is not correct saying (I used my own term for that process) but we must nourish pre-heaven jing to realize pre-heaven nature. And not jing only, the latter one is only one of the ingredients. Releasing layers of conditioning helps this process, for example there is "charge" and "discharge" methods and also there is balancing one ath the end of each meditation. Balancing helps to realize our true nature. May be that is why Lao Tzu wrote "always conduct good correction" meaning "keep balance all the time"!

So in this chapter he wrote about both - internal and external parts of De. Here I have another Torchinov' version of the translation and it sounds more like "always conduct the good correction". Which can be quite practical and not philosophical action. So your view on this is only your personal view

5 and 6 may be read as one and can mean internal state or awareness (preheaven "good place") and for that you need "water"

So why you dont see that this is not about morality or ethics? What is your point or argument in re to De understanding?

In theory you can, but also he has the video on it. Buy his video on Daogong if you can, i got it may be 12 years ago, but I could not understand it all the way until somebody from the lineage explained it to me, I mean how to do it the right way. There is not complete explanation in the book you can do it the way he explains it in the book

I read Evgeny Torchinov's translation of it. BTW he was the first teacher of Dmitry Artemyev who is the only the westerner who was initiated into Daoist neidan pai and got the methods of southern path of neidan. Here i talk about neidan schools only not concerning any neigong schools, so Dmitry Artemyev esteemed his translations as the best ones in the West. I myself have no any knowledge of Chinese but I trust translations of Evgeny Torchinov. And to my understanding i find support of the theory in re to De I said above... The problem here you will say he is not native. But I believe no much native chinese people who know ancient Chinese well enough. For example I wonder how you understand the chapter 8 of DDJ

I do some methods from 2 lineages, the first one is Daogong of Temple Style taiji and second one is secret one, I wont disclose it here, but this is very old lineage. I have got some basic methods from it. As for first one I can cite Waysun Liao' theory from his book Restoring Your Life Energy (page 31): "...the spark of pure life, our Te, that piece of God inside us...". Second lineage theory is the same one

Oh, Jesus.. Come here to save us. WHO IS YOUR TEACHER?

What do you mean by "native interpretation"? Who did this interpretation? Who is your teacher? There are loads of "interpretators". Even though they are native it is not absolute understanding just because they are native.