Seeker of Wisdom

No need for apology. You raised an important issue. Well said.

^^^ Maybe there's a difference between someone saying matter-of-factly, 'I have realised... Here's some tips' and claiming to be a [title for superior entity]. When I realise no-self, I may want to say something along the lines of 'I did this, you can achieve it by...' with the hope of encouraging and advising. I think people treat any and all attainment as this mystical thing that's just so unattainable it doesn't really happen anymore, and treating it as a realistic achievable cause-and-effect thing (without being too reductionistic and devaluing it) would help reduce that view and increase confidence, as well as suit the modern mindset.

The trouble is, you can't just choose to truly give up. Any decision will have a goal motivating it behind the scenes, with hope of getting it. Deciding to truly give up is an oxymoron, attempting it is, in practice, just resting in an unawakened state without doing anything to remove the underlying dualistic and deluded frame of reference. Unless someone truly is at a point of non-meditation, they are better off actively cultivating until their gnosis exposes the ridiculousness of it and it sloughs off by itself. Use the boat, then leave it behind. Start the fire, then throw in the match. When you succeed, you truly give up.

Yes, I'm trying more to just cultivate with less borrowed conceptual expectations. Yes, but I do feel I'm getting somewhere. The view of self is breaking down more, the more I look to plain experience rather than unquestioned ideas. I don't think it is itself enlightenment, but if enlightenment is defined in terms of removing delusions, the delusion of self must have to go at some point. Unless no-self is false somehow. Well, one realisation isn't a magic bullet or panacea. And I can see how no-self might destabilise someone, especially in the context of a community with one focus and one method. I have other practices, and no-self is just what's prominent for me to go for right now, not the be-all-and-end-all. Of course there is, it's also important to engage in life skilfully. But better to be more skilful and less deluded than just more skilful.

These sorts of statements feel to me like you're poor and there's treasure in the garden, but instead of digging it up to use it, you tell yourself about how you've actually always been rich - while nothing in your experience changes to match it! You're still living in poverty! I don't understand why some people emphasise leaving behind the boat so much that they're afraid using it to cross the river will be too dualistic or attached or something. You use a match to start a fire, then you can burn the match too. I get that this isn't about achieving anything, but climb off the nonduality tower for a moment and see that cultivation has some sort of beneficial outcome. No word tricks or mind games - if it didn't, there would be no point doing it. And confidence is better than believing you won't make any progress.

More of a Buddhist myself, but I think your question is relevant to all paths. Don't worry about not being saintly enough. You will change in many ways through practising/living cultivation. Have confidence in your ability to fundamentally change the way you view reality, the way your mind works, the way you behave - and get stuck in! Don't try to live up to an image of 'ideal Taoist'. That's wearing a mask, and you want to take masks off. Instead, try to live according to the results your actions will bring to others and yourself. That's real virtue. Trying to fit an image from rules handed down from on high is just holy conceit.

Fair point, the expectation of changing in some way probably interferes with seeing truth. Better to just follow the insight where it leads and enjoy the process. But at the same time, I think a lot of people - me, until recently - think that they won't get any real insight until they're divine beings far in the future. This holds them back from doing their best, whether or not they apply a perfect amount of effort, because the depths of their minds aren't open to insight right now. If you don't believe you're capable of it, you won't do very well. Good to not dwell on awakening because you know you're doing fine, enjoying your unfolding as it occurs; bad to not dwell on it because, deep down, you think any achievement in cultivation is too majestic and special for someone like you to get?

Do you see the distinction here? No-self doesn't deny any aspect or capacity of the mind or body, at all! What it denies is the idea of a central hub which owns and controls the mind and body as through it is independent from them. Action happens, choice happens. These are processes which occur in the body/mind. But they are not 'self' or carried out by 'self'. So far, the more honestly and deeply I look to experience, the less there is anything on which to base that idea. Raise and lower your arm. That decision was a real choice. The action is a real event. But were these carried out by some special, independent hub, or were they just points in a network of mental/physical processes? In direct experience there is just 'decision' and 'action', no 'me' or 'mine'. Anyway, I don't want to debate no-self here. (See 'lessons in Buddhism' in my PPF for hopefully more clarity on this, and feel free to PM me. At this point my understanding is still more conceptual than gnosis, but I'm getting there.) I only referred to it because I feel it's what I'm closest to realising, so I'm emphasising it for now. My key point in the OP was about trying not to think of awakening as some far-off mystical thing meant only for legendary superbeings, that the average person actually can get serious cultivation down, and thinking otherwise holds you back. What do people think of this?

I think wu wei is more about inner motivations and underlying perspectives than how active you're being. If you're studying hard with the ambition to help many people, without being conceited about it, that is IMO living the Way much more than doing little external action just because of selfishly wanting a quiet life. Water can be a mighty, thunderous torrent. It may not look harmonious as it's uprooting trees, but isn't it still taking the path of least resistance, letting gravity take it to the sea? Being harmonious doesn't have to mean being quiet or timid.

I'm more of a Buddhist, but if you're interested in Taoism I'd recommend Damo Mitchell's 'Daoist Nei Gong'.

I thought Padmasambhava said something about how one can learn the conceptual view and use it to guide your meditation, or simply meditate and have the view arise from that? I don't see why a correct conceptual understanding should be a prerequisite for realisation. Besides, concepts are only rough pointers in the right direction for this sort of thing. Having an idea of the theory is helpful, but I think experience from meditation should erode false views by itself. I agree meditation alone isn't enough, but for a different reason. We have to approach life skilfully, cultivating bodhichitta within it through action, as well as the cultivation on the cushion.

I have a running thread trying to explain Buddhism here, which I hope is helpful.

IMO the deepest level of going against the flow is how unawakened people don't accept the nature of reality... reality is self-evident but we habitually look at things in a warped way. Awakened people just see straight, free of that conflict. So that's where I see gnosis fitting in.

'Suffering' isn't a great translation for 'dukkha' because it implies that nihilistic, pessimistic view of things - I can't think of a good one word term. Imagine if wu wei was routinely translated as 'loafing about in your slippers'. That would give people a wrong idea that Taoism is all about being lazy, avoiding action. Similar translation issue here with Buddhism implying nihilism. Think of it more like 'the stress of going against wu wei', that would be a more Taoist way of phrasing the same thing. Or in Zhuangzi's parable of the empty boat that Steve shared on the first page, the dukkha an unawakened person has is like when the boat isn't empty. ¿Que? You're just listing things that Buddhist practices have increased in me.

There isn't anything to figure out - manifestation is new-age bullshit. If you have to play mind games to get something to 'work', it doesn't actually work. It just seems to because of confirmation bias and such. Maybe manifestation does work for advanced cultivators, and they would laugh at the idea of someone 'trying' to 'figure it out'. Cultivate, and maybe you'll find yourself developing abilities or something. But you'll definitely be able to flow through life with a lot less tension, and understand things more clearly. Let yourself and the way you live change harmoniously through cultivation, don't suppress negative thoughts or any of that forceful nonsense! Do some relaxed meditation/qigong/whatever and see what happens. Enjoy it. You say you don't want to invest in [restrictive] belief systems, but what you're doing is throwing yourself into other [permissive?] belief systems with just as much faith and stress. Maybe what you need to do is go somewhere on your own and blaspheme and denounce god and holiness and spirituality and morality and virtue and compassion, absolutely everything you can think of, until you've got your rage and confusion at Christianity all worked out. Hell, do a black mass or something if you want to. Psychodrama. Let it all go. Otherwise, you will always be running in the opposite direction from it, which is a different way of being trapped by it. I feel you're not really doing what's right for you, you're just trying to push yourself away from what's wrong for you. And that is not the same thing. Yeah, so I say do some psychodrama, and then come back to society and do your cultivation. I sincerely hope you find the clarity you're seeking.

Who made your phone? How much were they paid? What were the working conditions like? Unless we take ridiculous measures, we will to some extent financially support immoral industries. Your response is to not financially support the meat industry. My response is to decide that since I provide 0.[many noughts]% of these industry's profits, I just won't worry about it, because it's only worth me bothering about things I can affect.

Sung and Energetic Relaxation in Qigong "Anybody beginning their study of Qi Gong will at no doubt have been told to either relax, let go or in Chinese Sung/Song. Though seemingly an easy instruction it is in fact one of the most difficult aspects of the internal arts. Rather than simply an instruction which may be carried out immediately, it is a continual process of releasing and then reconnecting which becomes a gradual and constant part of any Qi Gong practitioners daily regime. I am currently in the United States teaching the process of Sung as it appears within Qi Gong training and it has struck me how difficult it is for many people, especially those new to the internal arts and also how much confusion there is over the process of letting go. Relaxing the body has to take place on the same three key levels as the rest of Daoist training. Relaxation must first appear within the physical body; from here it is the energetic body which then needs to release its tensions/blockages. These two then form a continuous loop of releasing more to allow the other to release more and in this way the cycle of going Sung builds deeper and deeper into the core of your being. These two then in turn rely on relaxation of the mind which can be the most difficult for many people as this requires deep levels of inner searching and letting go of the minds attachments, projections and motivations. Sung must take place for there to be effective energetic flow within the body, even if we ignore all of the obvious physical benefits to relaxing the mind and body. Without an adequate level of Sung being reached it is highly unlikely that any real levels of personal transformation can be reached as the information highway of the meridian system will be stuck or flow with a roughness which is not conducive with gaining results in your practice. If we have to summarize the key energetic flows that are aimed for within the body they would be as so: *The Qi within the torso needs to sink down towards the lower abdomen so that the natural focal point within your body is the lower abdominal region. *Within this downward flow needs to be a strong upwards flow through the central channel of the body and up the Governing meridian which runs through the center of your back. *The downward flow within your torso then needs to extend down towards the ground where it meets the opposite flow of Qi rising from the planet up through Yongquan towards the lower Dan Tien. *As the Qi from the upper part of your torso reaches the lower abdomen some of it flows back towards your back where it spreads via the shape of your Trapezius to give you an energetic flow which corresponds to the classical principle of adhering to the back. *From the Dan Tien, various circulations of information take place through the micro-cosmic orbits which run through torso, arms and legs. These require a high kevel of relaxation, fascial unbinding and connected stretching. *From the core of your body it is important that we develop a gentle expanding feeling meaning that your energetic field expands in all directions. This expansion strengthens the Wei Qi and helps to keep pathogenic factors from entering deep into the body. *The final key energetic movement is from the core of the body out to the extremities. Your Qi should gently vibrate out towards your hands and feet. In order for these energetic movements to take place we must first be able to relax the physical body sufficiently so that no tightness gets in the way. Physical tension or misalignments have a negative effect upon our energetic flow which curiously has both a vibratory and a slightly fluid nature to it. Relaxing the physical body correctly involves understanding the principle of letting go with the muscles whilst at the same time connecting the soft tissues and fascia network together into a single unit. The soft tissues of the body can connect together into one single unit which takes the form of a kind of biological wetsuit providing we understand how to utilize correct bodily posture in our practice. The Qigong structure is designed to allow this wetsuit to spread out and link into a single unit meaning that any movement within a part of the body has a direct affect upon every other part of the body. Correct connection means that if we carry out a simple motion such as extending a finger we will feel this movement carried across the entire of the rest of the body. This is obviously an important attainment for anybody studying the internal martial arts of Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua as well as Qigong. Not only that, but the connectivity goes deep inside of the body as well. Our connective tissues run not only on the surface but also deep inside the body right through to the fascia surrounding each of our organs and down to the surface of our bones. A high level of connection means that any movement with our physical body will also result in gentle pulls and motions deep within our core. This has profound ramifications upon the level of our physical health as any motion we make will then begin to purge the internal organs of stagnant fluids and energetic pathogens that may have collected around them. In order to connect this wetsuit together into a whole we must learn how to let the major muscle groups of the body go soft and hang from the bones. As this happens, the level of habitual contraction held within our body will release and this will in turn create more potential for expansion. As we release the tension we can begin to gently pull out the soft tissues using our fingers and toes as the extremes of these stretches. This stretch needs to be long, even and spread across the whole body. Do not overstretch to the point where tension is created though as this will begin to work against your Sung process. Remember that what you train is what you become so continued over-stretching to the point of tension will actually disconnect your body and make you more tense in both body and mind; this is a common issue which I see within the internal arts; people are often either too slack which creates stagnation or too taught which produces tension and blockages. The result of this process is that as you gradually release more you will find that you begin to disconnect. The soft tissues of your outer being will begin to become slack unless you increase the level of stretch across the body. You are aiming to get to the stage whereby your outer surface become like the skin of a drum. This is an important analogy as the skin of a drum enables vibrations to pass along its surface and this is what we want to happen within our own body. The drum skin of our biological wetsuit is required to be in such a state of connection that it enables the vibratory information of our Qi to pass through it. This is the key method of bringing our internal energy from our core and expressing it within the external world; whether this be for martial, therapeutic or spiritual reasons. As the body gradually releases more and more we can begin to open up the most difficult line within our body which runs from our hips or Kua region down to the ground and the base of our feet. By opening this line we develop root and enable energetic flow up from the ground into our body. Particular focus should be applied to this region of the body when practicing Sung as it is here that dictates whether or not we will connect effectively with the planet. About 80% of people that I teach actually hold on with their buttocks without realizing during any standing Qigong work and this is obviously a major block to the process of Sung within the lower body. If you successfully manage to connect with this Sung process you will then discover that the gradual extension of the soft tissues begins to transmit mechanical information into the core of the body, now your adjustments will begin to pull and stretch open the inside of the body automatically giving you the feeling that small movements are taking place inside of your skeletal structure. What is happening is that your biological wetsuit is now starting to pull the bones into a more efficient alignment through micro-adjustments that it would be impossible for you to correctly make if you tried using your conscious mind. It is more effective to allow the process of Sung to make these adjustments for you as you release and reconnect to ever more efficient levels. At this stage it is possible to start integrating practices such as Sung Breathing which can be read about in my book on Daoist Nei Gong. This will then help the body to remember this state through adjusting the plasticity of the soft tissues into a more affective shape. Through conscious connection of your breathing to your bodys energetic movements it is possible to create a kind of liquid wave of Qi which moves through the soft tissues and vibrates out along the wetsuit you have created. It is at this stage that the drum skin principle becomes particularly important. The alignment which your body has been put in by this process then begins to adjust your energetic flow to match the key movement principles outlined in bullet points above. As this happens it is wise to simply allow your mind to gently attach to the movements and observe what is taking place. Through giving your energy body a little attention you will enable it to work more efficiently and so the whole process of Sung will take place to a stronger level within the energetic body. You may observe this for some time but eventually you will reach the stage where it feels like this energetic growth can go no further. This is the point where you must re-enter the physical Sung process and work towards making your connection and micro-adjustments even more efficient. When you think you can Sung no more, Sung some more. Throughout all of this work it is likely that your body will begin to shed some of its imbalances. The physical body can begin to unbind any tensions stored within the physical tissues resulting in feelings of deep bruises, do not worry about this, these are just blockages opening up and passing. They will not last long. Note though that these deep bruises are just that, bruised feelings, not sharp pains. If you get sharp pains then it is likely that you have an incorrect alignment somewhere within your structure which needs resolving before you cause any further injury. Be particularly aware of these misalignments around the region of your knees and spine as when damaged they can take a long time to repair. As the energy body release stagnation it is likely that you will begin to shake or vibrate, sometimes quite violently. If this happens do not worry, it is quite normal, simply release more against it and allow more space for the energy to come out through. When this has been achieved you will find that the shake becomes a more steady and smooth wave which does not cause such violent reactions for your body. These releases are often accompanied with emotional release which can result in random laughing fits or tears, again do not worry, simply allow them to pass as they are a sign of your body making adjustments to itself through your Sung process. This has been an introduction to the early stages of Sung; there is a great deal more to the process but hopefully these pointers will help some people to begin exploring this often overlooked aspect of the internal arts. From here there is the Sung process of the mind which is the gateway to achieving varying states of stillness but that is a long topic. It is also something I do not recommend undertaking without the guidance of a trusted teacher as the process can sometimes be difficult for people both technically and emotionally. Never be satisfied with the amount of Sung you have achieved, relax, connect more, relax more, connect more; this is the way to attaining Sung. It is not a quick or easy process but rather something which becomes a lifelong study in its own right." (From here)

I would say Buddhism doesn't aim for any particular state of consciousness (all are just temporary, relative states), but rather gnosis of the nature of phenomena and the mind, as they are in any state. If turiya pervades the other states of consciousness, maybe that's the same thing.

Maybe if someone is struggling with feeling like an awful sinner (from an oppressive Christian background or whatever), the perspective of that guy might be extremely liberating for them, like how some people need to go through the satanic ritual blasphemy thing for a while to get over harsh conditioning. But for me, it's more uplifting and useful to see these flaws as a lack of skill based on false views, which can be uprooted through gnosis. I tend to prefer 'unskilful' or 'ignorant/delusional' to 'evil/sinful'. And I don't think it's something that has to be inherent to us - it is not based on the nature of reality, so it can be cleared by seeing reality, therefore we have the inherent capacity to be free of it. I definitely agree with not ignoring negative traits, learning from them, etc - 'use poison as medicine'. But as a cultivator, I want to either remove my unskilful traits or harness them skilfully (definitely not repress them though!), not because I hate myself for being 'evil', but because someone who cares for himself doesn't want to stay deluded when gnosis is possible. I think many people would be better off with that guy's ideas than the 'we are horrible sinners, so feel bad about it and try to repress your evil, even though you can't be good anyway' bilge though, I respect his thoughts. Makes way more sense, and much more healthy.

I think you're taking no-self in a way that denies individual qualities. The mind is real, the body, memories, consciousness, etc, is all real, but the idea it makes a 'self' is just an idea. Just as the bricks of a house are real, but the idea 'house' is only a conceptual label placed by people. So expanding consciousness doesn't imply strengthening the idea of self, because when the idea of self is gone, that doesn't get rid of consciousness. Consciousness can be expanded without the idea of it being 'me' or 'mine'. Gateless Gatecrashers is a good guide to the basics of no-self - from a direct experience perspective too. You have a point about the sense of individual attainment, but I think that really most of us are cultivating with some idea of making our'selves' enlightened and that's good enough to get us to the point where we can let go of that. It's a practical relative truth for now.

You're doing it just fine. If you were told to observe clouds, would you doubt whether or not you were actually seeing them? No, look in the sky and they're there. Similarly, if you observe your mind you may notice thoughts, images, memories, desires, emotions, sounds, etc. You don't need to do anything special to notice these things. If you are happy or you want to buy cheese, you don't need to go get a quick MRI to find out. You have mental awareness, just as you have sensory awareness. This practice is just paying attention to mental awareness, without trying to control or change or evaluate or understand it. You don't need to try to feel like a separate observer. You don't need to contrive anything like that. Just experience directly. If after a while you still have a lot of doubts, you could try observing something a bit more concrete instead, such as the breath.

4bsolute, I feel you really, really need to take a break from all this stuff. Stop meditating and reading cultivation stuff and thinking about cultivation for a full 6 months, just get your hands dirty gardening and stuff. I really value daily practice normally, but from your posts I get an impression of some serious 'in-the-clouds' imbalance that IMO calls for avoiding all this stuff for a good while.

Well, in my view I don't want to be clouded with delusion and have to cycle up and down through states... I want gnosis as far as it can go. But that's probably not really what gets me cultivating each day. I've become a better person with a better attitude and mind and virtue over the last three or so years, and I'm enjoying feeling like every step I take on the path removes a little weight from me as I unfold a bit more.

Also, if you truly lived your philosophy, my forceful tone earlier couldn't have upset you, could it? So why did it matter to you? You seemed insulted or something, but that makes no sense if you know we are all one and so on.