Seeker of Wisdom

How do you propose to escape being dragged around in rebirth without removing its causes? Show me one TRUE master of any tradition who said that just developing chi is enough to escape rebirth. A true Immortal has Tao realisation, that's a more significant factor than their chi. Chi is a thing of form, so it is impermanent, so it cannot bestow either physical or any other sort of immortality. But realising Tao involves mastery of the alaya consciousness and loss of the causes of rebirth, which causes complete freedom from rebirth. It is not even possible to develop chi to the fullest if there are mental factors limiting it! Someone who doesn't do anything focused on their chi at all could realise Tao; and as a result all the blocks in their chi would dissolve, their kundalini would rise, channels open completely, tan tiens fill, chakras fully open... etc. But without realisation, even if you cultivate chi for eons there will always be a little mental knot screwing up the flow. The reason so few break free is: it's the highest achievement in existence, so of course it's very difficult. Few recognise a valid path, not all of those walk it, not all of those walk it correctly, not all of those try hard... and even for those who try hard, it's a long-term goal. It's very unrealistic to expect surmounting the 3 realms in one life. That would be great of course, but a more realistic (though still ambitious) set of goals I have for this life is: get kundalini raised, master at least first jhana, develop enough prajna to get at least stream-entry. Yes, I agree 100%. But, we still need to develop samadhi. And just because everything is Tao, doesn't mean all paths lead to realising Tao. I am surrounded by air, but that doesn't mean that I can breathe through my elbow. How can all paths lead to Tao? Is serial killing a valid path? Eating fondue? Most people barely have an aim for themselves at all and no concept of cultivation or cultivation practices - is that a path to Tao? Everyone will realise Tao eventually because, being reborn again and again, it is inevitable they will eventually wind up on a valid path. But why wait so very long? We have access to valid paths, so let's seek them out and follow them. If in this life I become more ignorant and less virtuous, sure, on the absolute level nothing is lost because it's all Tao anyway, but being practical, that is definitely a step backwards.

I'm not saying other paths wouldn't have worth for different people at different times, just that only paths with shared key characteristics lead all the way. Judaism may be right for a Jew in this life, but Jewish practice doesn't have samadhi or prajna so is limited in how far it can go. That person would hopefully in a later life be ready for a more robust path to really get somewhere. As for different goals - sure, not everyone wants realisation. But it is foolish to not want realisation. It is the highest possible fruit of cultivation, the only one providing liberation from samsara, rebirth, craving, delusion, ill-will. Cultivation done purely for chi or phenomena like OBE's is childish cultivation of no worth at all at the time of death! If I'm offending you, good because you must wake up! You have access to truth people in the past would jump at the chance for, and are squandering it for New Age shit!

OK then. A state of torpor with awareness artificially bolstered by substances. You are emulating the relaxation and non-conceptuality of real meditation through trance, and trying to cover over the dullness inherent to trance by taking 920mg of various things to meditate properly. I'd suggest just exercising a little effort in learning real meditation, but clearly you're too attached to your 'path' to consider the idea that it may be actually less a 'path' and more of a 'trip in a shopping cart over a cliff'. I understand, after all I did AYP for two years and also fucked around with stuff unrelated to enlightenment that really doesn't matter before that. Good luck MPG.

OK, I'm done with this thread. Clearly you are just not reading my posts any more, and you have no interest in anything about cultivation besides messing about with chi to try to become physically immortal. Good luck making the impermanent eternal, without even dharmakaya or mere jhana attainments ROFL.

Could you take 5 seconds to explain! Clearly you mean something different by the word 'trance', and for heaven's sake don't tell me it's in between waking and sleeping because that describes someone just before passing out as much as it does whatever you are talking about.

Can you explain what you do to enter trance, so I get what you are talking about. The dictionary describes trance as the state of someone under hypnosis, which is clearly not the particular form of being neither awake nor asleep that you are talking about.

tell me what you do to enter what you mean by trance so I know what you are actually talking about.

If you think that, it sounds like you tried shamatha for a bit and gave up because it actually takes discipline and effort and patience. Trance is inherently a state with low focus. Stop using the word trance, and tell me what you do to enter what you mean by trance so I know what you are actually talking about.

So you aren't trying to realise Tao? You don't want to develop good qualities, stability of mind, non-conceptual insight and realisation of Tao? I don't see what else cultivation could be for, unless you're just messing around with chi and spirits all day long.

"Being focused on an object either internal or external to a superhuman degree leads to Jhana, Jhana is not trance." Yet, you say focus in the waking state is worthless. WTF? Why would you pass up jhana for trance? How many people become masters from being hypnotised vs. how many have become masters from shamatha? "One pointed concentration itself does not allow you to enter into trance" great, because there's less risk of me slipping into trance then! By 'trance', you MUST be referring to something entirely different. There's no way you really believe the state of someone just before passing out is a good thing for cultivation.

The same principle of virtue, samadhi and prajna is absolutely universal. Training in the state of a hypnotised person is the exact opposite of samadhi, and therefore trance is useless. Unless we are just misunderstanding each other based on words?

Don't use the word trance then, because the state of a hypnotised person or someone half-asleep is not one where "your thought processes will never be more lucid than in this state. You will never think with more clarity or be more insightful than in this state." Explain what you do to enter trance, that will make it clearer to me what exactly you are talking about.

"..."

Perhaps 'whom' could be interpreted not as another entity, but the person you yourself have the potential to be... we have the potential to be someone we should be ashamed of, or someone we should be proud (not as in arrogance) of. Thus, the man of virtue knows how to skilfully handle his mind such that his good qualities blossom, and his negative qualities diminish, but without suppression or fighting against himself. Remember the folk tale of the good and evil wolves fighting within you, the one that wins is the one you feed. The man of virtue feeds the good wolf, and doesn't try to fight the evil wolf directly and get bitten but just redirects it's force skilfully and lets it starve.

Yes, I agree, but we still need to fumble around on the conventional truth with words on this subject, because we need the right understanding to cultivate correctly. There is no way Jim realised his Emptiness through trance. My points are still valid and useful points. I will say no more here. People can and should come to their own conclusions, and I think I've said enough to point down the right line of inquiry (unless I'm wrong after all - I'm not presuming to be infallible).

Was Jim in trance, or samadhi? Big, big difference. And even if he entered trance temporarily to aid chi transmission, does that mean people should be practicing trances on a regular basis as a main method in its own right?

Repeating the same quotes doesn't make your argument any more convincing. Have you considered that there are multiple states between consciousness and unconsciousness? Trance is just one, and it's actually completely at odds with cultivation. Actually, in a bigger sense, trance isn't even between consciousness and unconsciousness. It is a conscious state, but one where awareness is focused on a contrived mental dullness. The 'emptiness where thoughts cease' that Chunyi Lin is referring to (assuming he knows what he is talking about) is certainly not trance. It is jhana. Entering a trance to then focus is like jumping in the sea to then dry off. I have entered trances before, many times, and tried focusing/meditating within them. It is of no use to cultivation. There is more awareness of chi... but less awareness. And awareness is what we need to hone to cut through delusion and clinging. If you are saying here that focus is good (because you are saying to enter trance, then to focus), haven't you noticed that the level of focus possible in trance is inherently lower than that while fully conscious? If you value focus, then you should start at waking consciousness then go to higher focus where consciousness and unconsciousness are really, properly not separate. Focusing from waking consciousness (shamatha) trains out the hindrances of restlessness and torpor, making it possible to reach the actual states of jhana between consciousness and unconsciousness. It also improves meta-cognition and mindfulness, leading to a less reactionary person who acts, thinks and speaks with more wisdom because they are not slaves to previous habits. It then becomes possible to progress to vipassana practice, where the mind that has been developed through shamatha focuses on the nature of experience itself while letting go of all clinging to forms and mental phenomena, to gain prajna. Prajna then leads to dropping all conceptual limitation to realise Tao. It is not possible to just jump to letting go and seeing Tao, BTW, because any letting go done without great prajna is still limited within the constraints of mind and awareness, mind and awareness are still clung to as the things that are 'doing' the letting go. A sword cannot cut itself. Please explain how trance progresses to Tao realisation. Have you considered it at all, or are you just assuming trances are good because they feel calm and a book says so? If we are in trance for months as embryos and much of the time as babies, and trance is good cultivation, why aren't more people highly realised, why aren't young children all masters?

Remember me debating you about trance, along with TI and Spotless? I wouldn't have disagreed with your position at all, had I realised your interpretation of the word 'trance' included laser like focus. Many people generally use the word 'trance' to describe a zoned out state of mind, dead tree Zen, like someone hypnotised or a rock. I'm sure that's not what you're aiming for at all. When I say shamatha/access concentration/jhana, and you refer to levels of trance, based on the bolded quote it seems we are saying the same thing with emphasis on different aspects... miscommunicating. You emphasise non-conceptuality and I emphasise vividness, we misunderstand and think each other neglects our emphasised aspect of meditation. Maybe if you said something like 'vivid trance' or 'alert trance', it would prevent people who see 'trance' as having connotations of laxity/torpor misunderstanding and starting a pointless debate.

Just noticed the first link of the 3 chi articles went awry, here it is - http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_microcosmic_circulations_and_playing_with_your_qi.htm Also the first link - http://www.meditationexpert.com/zen-buddhism-tao/index.htm And the wikipedia madhyamaka one is screwy too, but the article is easy enough to find. Gah! Technology...

Hey, here's some stuff I recommend you read so you have more good information to draw on: *The Sutra of Hui-neng, Thomas Cleary. Really good Zen stuff. *Working Towards Enlightenment and To Realise Enlightenment, Master Nan. So much information, excellent overviews of cultivation. Free on scribd. *The Attention Revolution, Alan Wallace. PRICELESS! A must read for a proper understanding of samadhi and the practice of shamatha meditation. *Bill Bodri's articles on jhana - it's the series of 11 at http://www.meditationexpert.com/zen-buddhism-tao/index.htm. I've never seen a better concise guide to this important subject. *http://www.meditationexpert.com/meditation-techniques/m_Taoist_internal_microcosmic_circulations_and_chakra_meditations.htm, http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_chakras_and_kundalini.htm, and http://www.meditationexpert.com/yoga-kung-fu/y_5_things_to_know_about_chakras_and_kundalini.htm - these three articles are important, people are far too obsessed with chi out of context of the rest of cultivation these days. *A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life, Shantideva. So inspiring, simply a beautiful text. It's like the sermon on the mount, but longer and with an emphasis on practical advice and wisdom teachings. PDF online. *http://www.meditationexpert.com/zen-buddhism-tao/z_what_is_seeing_the_Tao.html - important to realise the Tao is between emptiness and existence. *http://www.meditationexpert.com/zen-buddhism-tao/z_highest_states_in_buddhism_versus_hinduism.html - points out the distinction between Tao and pure awareness, and that Tao is itself neither empty nor existent. *http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skandha - really important to understand the skandhas and anatta, but don't stop there, find the middle way between sunyata and tathata - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka. I've given you a lot there, lol. You could be reading that stuff and looking over stuff it leads to for some time. Enjoy.

Cheers. Yes, it was 90°. Though I don't expect to be doing 12mins every day just yet, I'll build up steadily from my current 6mins.

I've been doing 6mins a day for a little while. Just now I pushed myself a bit and got over 12mins - longest yet. It was incredible! From about 7mins it wasn't hard, my legs settled into the posture and barely ached. They shook a bit, but I had no trouble staying in place. The heat in my legs and dan tien wasn't much hotter than usual, but it was kind of 'thicker'. It seemed to dilate my channels a bit, and chi has spread all through my body. It feels lighter and tingles. The biggest thing, though, was the way my mind cleared, stilled and opened up - not as much as in a good anapana session, but really something. I wasn't expecting this much clarity to come in horse stance. From 8mins, it felt very peaceful and joyful so I didn't want to stop. I would have happily stood there for hours if my left calf muscle would have let me. Ah, well... I guess the solution there is MOAR horse stance!

That's still not mastery of rebirth, because you have to be reborn. Someone forced to walk away is more free than someone forced to walk along a track, but a fully free person should be able to stand still, and teleport. So realisation of Tao, the root of birth and death, is needed. Any school with correct development of virtue, samadhi and prajna would lead to that. Any school that says much more about those than chi, emphasises the Tao as beyond conception, and emphasises vividness in meditation is decent IMO. Some practice directly focused on chi would speed things up, but too much emphasis and it doesn't lead to much but a slightly clearer mind and a serious fixation with the body.

I don't understand how obsessed some people are with chi. It's still just form! What does it have to do with Tao? We do need to develop our chi for sure, but let's not forget the far more significant things: virtue, mind, insight. And even those are nothing but the features of an extraordinary but still deluded being, without making the actual leap through the gateless gate. So I sigh at the people constantly playing with chi channels and circulations. That stuff has a place, but acting like the body is the supreme thing and getting a perfect body is itself liberation suggests no awareness of the basic point of cultivation - transcending all phenomena to realise Tao. How can getting a perfect body take you beyond form, sensation, conception, volition and consciousness to the Tao which contains all without touching and is outside all dualities, including the duality of duality vs. non-duality? LOL.