sree
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Everything posted by sree
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I hate to say this but you lack power in meditative discourse. Cat is better at it. Your talent is in the field of mechanical engineering. Thanks for your efforts in contributing to this thread.
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I am quite conversant with Wang Bi's interpretation of the Chinese texts. The authors of the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi have no significance in the study of the Chinese texts. The message is important, not the messenger. Where in the Tao Te Ching and the Zhuangzi does it say that you must worship gods? Which version of the Tao Te Ching are you referring to? The Tao Te Ching in its classical Chinese form is the only text I read seriously. Nothing else. That is your perception, unfortunately. But I do hope you we could discuss cooperatively. If you insist on worshipping gods in your Taoist worship, that is fine by me. Rene is a philosophical Daoist who doesn't worship gods and does not even want an altar. I'm cool with that too.
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I don't think there is anything to explore. There is only Philosophical Daoism of the west. The Chinese are a practical people. They have no time for contemplation on the Tao. Their Taoism is mainly religious for the asking of help from gods. Is there anything in life that is not superfluous?
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What is the difference between following a tailess dog (tao) and following a doggy with a tail (taoism)? It's still dog-tracking, isn't it? Sorry for doing a Chuang Tzu on you but your insistence on formlessness is also a formula.
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If by religious Taoism you mean Chinese religious Taoism, your doubt has validity. But don't forget, not all religions are Chinese. And not all forms of Taoism are derived in China. As such, the western understanding of religious Taoism cannot be dismissed. You are welcome to debunk my rationale for getting religious as a philosophical Daoist of the west. Not really. No one has built a Taoist altar for Philosophical Daoism in the west. Can you imagine a Taoist altar that works for me and Rene and Tom Ford? What you say is true only if I am on LSD. I don't do drugs. Therefore, my empirical experience of Taoist worship will be physically and authentically objective.
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Whoa, there is no antagonism here. You staked a claim right on the turf I wish to occupy, that's all. If your claim is legit, then I need to move on. Of course, I would be disappointed but I would have to deal with it like any reasonable mature adult. So, let's examine your claim that "classical Taoism" is philosophical Daoism taken to a religious level and include gods. Your links are to some guy's blog. I browsed through his postings and don't accept his views. I respect his right to express them but they do not provide legitimate basis for your claim that the religious form of philosophical Daoism include gods. You have the right to worship your way based on your form of Daoist philosophy. Philosophical Daoism is generally known as Daoist philosophy derived from direct reading of widely-accepted western translations of the Tao Te Ching. Private blogs do not qualify as authoritative source of philosophical Daoism. Also, your term "classical Taoism" is misleading and have no connection to the classical Chinese texts. Please do discuss this further if you don't agree with my conclusions.
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Since you find nothing wrong with that and I just love your Taoist philosophy which matches mine, why won't you join in worship with me at our very own Taoist altar? You can help me fashion one and think of some rites that could kick our philosophy up a notch to the religious level. Fact is, you are already doing it just as many of us philosophical Daoists here in America are doing it in our respective informal ways. Ours doesn't have to be an "ism". Just because traditional religions are not set up right in our eyes doesn't mean religion cannot be set up right at all.
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I googled but found not a thing that supports what you said about "Classical Taoism". I am a philosophical Daoist who intend to take philosophical Daoism to the level of religion without the gods. So, you are cramping my style. I am sure we can work this out if you point me to material that backs up what you said about "Classical Taoism".
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That's the spirit! (figuratively-speaking) A Taoist altar is any structure before which a rite, which is Taoist in nature to you, can be enacted.
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Ritual celebration in worship affirms the material substantiality of life. If you realize you have never lost it, then the more reason to celebrate. Let's set up that altar. How about it?
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How would you perform worship at such an altar? Remember, it has to be empirical and experienced at the physical level...like sex.
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While it is true that nothing is permanent, everything persists long enough to serve practical needs. My home is expected to last a lifetime and if it doesn't, I have insurance coverage for its destruction by fire, earthquake and flood. My bank is expected to last a lifetime and if it should go bust, I have taken care to stash enough money in other banks. My money is expected to last a lifetime and should it lose its value completely in a global economic collapse, I have other assets to keep me going. The point is, the Buddhist impermanence has no material significance. We can deal with it. As for the body's impermanence, I am more troubled about living too long and suffering old age infirmities than dying too early. I don't accept the reality of death only because it cannot be experienced but I am concerned about my inability to grapple with dying. I am like a character on the movie screen talking to you, the operator of the movie projector. There is no material connection between me - in the movie - and you when you shut off the projector. How do I die?
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K, which post are you responding to? I don't see Jing-Qi-Shen mentioned anywhere in this thread.
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The only "classic" Taoist altar would be the Chinese Taoist altar. The one I am talking about is not like any Taoist altar in existence. I am not aware of any religious expression of philosophical Daoism in the west. I don't see any relevance in incorporating Chinese cosmology in the setting up of western Taoist altar. Does it even have to conform to any of the types you refer to? .
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K, are you saying that the traditional Chinese Taoist altar is the inviolate trademarked Taoist Altar? I seem to be fighting this the way gays fight for the right to get married.
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Thank you for your input. I want to examine it to see if it coincides with the Tao of dying. Christianity sees corporeal life as temporal and is invested in the spiritual afterlife. Buddhism totally dismisses material reality as an illusion. As a Daoist, I accept my material existence and does not look beyond it. While Gurdjief is aware of death, I don't think it exists. The Buddhist way is one of denial of material reality which is quite amazing. To avoid the pain of attachment, the Buddhist keeps telling himself nothing is real. But reality is not a matter of choice. It just is regardless of one's denial. So, I have no choice but to reside in material reality as a person trapped withing a body that disintegrates with time. How does this person live, without denial, and die in concert with the body? What is the way? That's the question.
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As explained to Zero, I am on topic even though my Taoist altar is different from the Chinese traditional one you like. There is no reason why you and I can't worship together at our respective Taoist altars side by side.
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Why didn't you say so? I am glad I imposed on you to speak up. Daoist philosophy is not exclusive even though the various Daoist sects have different beliefs for their respective devotees. As a philosophical Daoist, I don't belong to any sect but that doesn't disqualify me from erecting a Taoist altar that reflects my beliefs. I don't believe in spirits and immortals nor see any connection between them and the Tao Te Ching. Therefore, my altar will be different. Must it be dedicated to the worship of deities to qualify as a Taoist altar? I am a young professional living in present day America not ancient China. I need a Taoist altar to articulate the expression of my Taoist faith. How am I suppose to explain to the people who come to my apartment for dinner and they see my fireplace Taoist altar stacked with red candles and inhabited by Sun Wukong, et al? I know I am breaking barriers and pushing for something new. Is this forbidden?
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I would do as you say if you would tell me why I need to go away. It is hurtful when someone asks you to leave a party or go play in some other sandbox and don't say why. It's like telling a black guy to shove off or asking a gay fella to leave. They know why they are not wanted even if you don't spell it out. What happened to tolerance? I need to call you out on this, zero. It's for the common good.
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newTaoist, please check your emotion and don't let it drive our discussion turning it into an argument. There is no reason why non-believers and believers cannot talk things over side-by-side harmoniously. "Nonsense" is a word that carries derogatory connotations. It is not my intent to insult. I use that word as per its defined meaning of non-sensical i.e. doesn't make sense. Just because something doesn't make sense to me doesn't mean it cannot make sense to you. As long as I respect your right to your beliefs, and I do, I deserve your respect of my right to mine. This doesn't require either of us to accept the other's opinion. I hope you understand our need to be different and don't impose a condition that we all either have to think alike or shut up.
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Your take is fascinating. I have never quite figured out the division between the inner and the outer. Spirituality, to me, is a quality of life, a heightened state of being. Is the separation between the physical and the spiritual a fact or mind-made? Another divide again, and this time it is between philosophy and religion, between thought and action. How is it possible to bring about mental order through the creation of a physical altar? If I am the creator of the altar and my mind is a chaotic mess, then who is the landscape artist clearing up the mess here, metaphorically speaking?
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The reality of the Daoist religion (or Daoism in any shade and form) is as authentic as Catholicism or Hinduism not to mention Buddhism. To nonbelievers, whose practises are based on logic and reason, they are all nonsense. I am a non-believer who reads the Tao Te Ching and shuns Daoism, accepts the teaching of Jesus Christ and shuns all Christian faiths. Making up nonsense is a personal privilege. Thus,your reality of the Daoist religion is different from Chidragon's. So, why marginalize him for exercising his perogative?
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thelerner, I am not manipulating anything but just asking. I am aware that I am just inhabiting the body like a rider riding a horse. I am not inquiring into the afterlife, that part when the horse drops dead and I am thrown off my mount. I am talking about living in a way that is cognizant of dying. This way, I am always prepared and not living like a fool as though life is eternal. I can always get thrown when my horse buckles beneath me. When that happens, I will know how to land on my feet.
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Worship at an altar in one's heart is still counted as philosophizing, a mental process. Taomeow said religious worship has to be emperical and experienced at the physical level ... like sex.
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I swear I saw another post from you before. It contained your remark about my being scary of red candles. Your post disappeared. What happened? I had planned on responding after worship at my Daoist altar with a friend. The reason why I find red candles scary is because I associate them with the ugly statues of deities at the Chinese Daoist altars. Also, those altars are generally unkempt and laded with ashes. Chinese horror movies also show those altars with the red candles when Chinese vampires come hopping about in the night.
