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Mr Chi, I have reflected on this Chapter 80 as I listened to the Cantonese recitation over and over. It made me laugh to think of Marblehead's being adamant about the ability of the western mind at grasping Chinese concepts. Shame on Dawei for insisting that translating Chinese is no big deal. Line 12 - even your translation doesn't come near to the real thing - made me laugh the loudest. Chapter 80 invokes such wistful scenarios of the Chinese way of life. 12.雞犬之聲相聞, 12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other, Anyway, westernization of the world is the trend as we strive for economic well-being in every country. Urbanization and mass migration to mega-cities characterize the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of modern life. Chapter 80 seems to point the other way. There are 7 billion people on the planet and counting. China has to deal with 25 million more people each year joining the labor market. God knows how many more millions India, without the one-child policy, is spitting out. And every mouth is crying for food. The only way out is westernization: mass-production and globalization. No more small countries with few people. Mr Chi, does the Tao Te Ching hold the answer for today's world or is it no longer relevant? Does it have a meaningful guiding philosophy like Sun Tzu's Art of War for modern business application and warcraft?

I like my stuff too because they are hard-to-get goods. Are your stuff hard-to-get goods also? The Tao Te Ching warned against this (不贵难得之货) in Chapter 3. It says that not having possessions will avoid stealing. What are the problems if we don’t have possessions? Obama doesn’t have to own Air Force One but he can use it. Perhaps, governments have tried it wrong: poor execution. Is it fair to discredit Communism because the Russians and the Chinese messed up? I didn’t learn the Tao Te Ching from “Imagine” but that song was Lennon’s Way (道 i.e.Tao). I thought it may be worth checking out because it defines the popular ideology of western socialism that has overtaken America today. It looks like the American Way (道 i.e.Tao) of the future. Ok, you like the guy and he was a fraud. Women like cads also. I find this strange. In China, if a guy is a crook, you stay away from him. Confucius taught that you are not different from the folks you like or hang out with. You know that western saying, birds of a feather, flock together?

So, this messed up human existence is the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living of Mankind. This is it! It is our Way: the free market. Just make sure you are on the right side of the trade and the other guy is on the wrong side of your gun. There is nothing good or bad about human nature, it is our Way. Is this why the Tao Te Ching teaches non-interference? On Christmas Eve, last week, I drove a friend to the Post Office. She went in and I sat in my SUV parked outside with the engine running. It was real cold that morning. A guy in a motorized wheelchair moved up and down the sidewalk asking for goodwill from folks going in and coming out of the Post Office. He wheeled up to me looking at me through the closed window of my car. I looked at him as he started to talk to me. As the window was closed, I couldn’t hear a word but I knew, and he knew I knew, what he was communicating: probably something like God bless you, Christmas is here, goodwill to all men and how about giving a poor guy some money. I looked away and ignored his plea. I could sense that he was still talking to me, for several seconds, but I didn’t look. Suddenly, he bellowed “asshole!!” and it penetrated the glass window hitting me like a powerful shotblast from an RPG. He wheeled away back to the entrance of the Post Office. Is that the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living? Who paid? You guys first met here? What is “here”? It would be tough to get into your group. By now, the relationship among you three would have become quite comfortable and nothing casual. Only a small dog or a cat can make that foursome. This is because we all love animals but can't stand people. Life is temporary? You mean we are like Jehovah’s witnesses having a look around and then check out? The thing that troubles me is why is everybody so realistic about getting a raw deal? Mr Chi is realistic about that calf getting chewed up by the lion and you are resigned to getting executed like guys – who have exhausted the appeal process - in death row. I think the idea of death is mind-blowing. You can think about it but I don’t believe that you can ever experience it.

Thanks for bringing this up, Mr Chi. I will revert after studying this Chapter using that Cantonese-speaking website you showed me.

Marblehead is American. The other two are Americans also. And that's the binding combination. Anything else is just window-dressing. A Chinese will not understand this.

If it were possible, we all would like to lay around instead of going to work to provide food, shelter and security. Ok, so some semblance of an economically and politically structured society is necessary. And we do have that in the world, the set up of which reflects our nature. And as long as we don’t set upon each other, mugging, cheating, raping or a full scale war, that’s the right thing, isn’t it? I am happy for you. Do you care if your group of three doesn’t ever grow any larger? I’ll bet the three of you are men. Men get along well together. The only problem I see is death. I don’t know which is worse: to be the first to go or suffer a hit to the team when one of the other two kicks the bucket. I hope you don’t mind me being brutally blunt. Being philosophers, we stare into the abyss to see the honest truth. This is real meditation. Not that cross-legged stuff of the Golden Flower.

Can you cite an instance of universal good?

The honor is all mine. Let’s keep it honest. I will not be discussing the Tao Te Ching itself but on principles I have derived from it. The Classic is Chinese and, in my opinion, only incorruptible Chinese can access it. Principles, however, are universal and comprehensible to anyone who has a backbone and not overly stupid. The realization of Lennon’s world is predicated upon everybody joining him. This approach comes from the mindset of an individualistic digit, who perceives himself a member of society, trying to rope in the rest of the people to do the right thing for the “common good”. What is the right thing? Lennon said to give up possessions, religion, nationalism, ambition and live just for today. Will that do the trick? Second question: You said there are too many people who will not do the right thing. What if there are just two: you and another who share your worldview. What would be the right thing to do to bring about the Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living in your world of two?

Ok, you more or less see Lennon’s goal the same way as Marblehead: it works only for the individual because there are too many people doing their own things. Granted, forcing others to do your thing is not your Way (道 i.e.Tao). Well, I don’t think that is the Way of the Tao Te Ching either. What about a society of one, namely, you? Think about it. You said Lennon’s goal is realistic for an individual. Is this a half-assed belief or did you examine Lennon’s manifesto seriously and came up with the realization that it is not a silly ditty by a pot-head but practicable and actionable wisdom? Just because everybody is into it all the time, does that make it serious? Everybody has been into sex since Adam chomped on that apple. Do you think a whole planet of people getting horny and getting laid, regardless of the consequential misery, serious? Every one of the main institutionalized religion has billions of devotees. Does that make spiritual doctrines serious? I am not saying that the Tao Te Ching or the Holy Trinity is not a serious piece of work. But I do question your argument that you and I, the straw dogs (刍狗) of Chapter 5 of the Tao Te Ching, are not wackos but smart guys (聖人) who can tell the difference between Steve McQueen and Jughead.

You (we) are that human animal. Do you think you are capable of attaining Lennon's goal? Lennon was just writing a song, one said, and he never took what he sang seriously. As you said, we can't fault him for dreaming about a worthy goal. Do you think the Tao Te Ching is a serious piece of work? Or could it be nothing more than a compilation of daydreams written by a bunch of Chinese John Lennons 2,600 years ago?

So, what is the bottom line? Lennon's theory is not practicable, neither to you nor to others who have commented thus far. Does the Tao Te Ching offer a Way of living that is practicable?

) Ok, Lennon's Way (道 i.e.Tao) of living is not practicable. Does the Tao Te Ching offer a practicable way of living?

My God! This is so foreign-minded! A Taoist pedophile will not be read his Miranda rights but stomped to death right in the streets in the Land of Tao (中國).

You've got to be fair with the man. He was just imagining and asking if you would join him. If we all would follow the pied piper, that Way (道 i.e.Tao) could happen or we could all go over the cliff. Ok, let's say it's John's manifesto on the Way (道 i.e.Tao), and let's give the man the benefit of the doubt that he would throw his $150 million into the communal pot if we all did the same and follow him, would it work? Come on, man, where is the faith?

Did I affirmed what you said? I said earlier that if you know you are not meditating, then you are. After that, I said that you can tell when you are not meditating. But just because you can feel you are not meditating doesn't mean meditation is not going on like some programs running on unbeknownst to you, in the background behind the web page you are looking at or the stuff you are working on.

As I don't know how to initiate this, would you be kind enough to launch a new thread entitled "The Way (道 i.e.Tao) of Living"? To start off the discussion, you can cut and paste on the new thread site the following: Let's discuss our way of life, according to our values and our attitudes, to find out how far off the mark we are in relation to the eternal Way (道 i.e.Tao). John Lennon's Way (道) of Living, as told in his song "Imagine" would be as follows: No Heaven, no Hell, and above us only sky. (Meaning no religion, shamanism, spiritualism.) All the people (百姓) living together for today. (No dwelling on the past, no planning for the future.) No countries. (No nationalism, no territorial divisions.) Nothing to live or die for. (No conflicts, no dreams and no wants.) No possessions. (Public or private.) Lennon said that his Way (道 i.e.Tao) will lead to: No need for greed and hunger. All the people, sharing all the world, living life in peace. Is John Lennon's dream practicable and consistent with the teaching of the Tao Te Ching?

Mr Chi, I don't believe that meditation can lead to 天人合一 . Meditation is superstition. The Chinese scholar is not superstitious and studies the Tao Te Ching to reflect on the truth about life. To the 百姓 (straw dogs), who see with their educated minds, they can only imagine and picture what is 天人合一 and try to attain it through meditation, a willful act invented to induced a trance-like state by focusing on their breath or whatever. Why don't we pay attention to reflecting on the way (tao) of living instead, like true scholars of the Tao Te Ching?

You smell blood,don't you? You know I'm onto something even though Marblehead doesn't. idiot_stimpy, I like your name. So, I'm going to tell you. You can't know if you are meditating. But you can tell when you are not. You have a take on what meditation is, I can tell. You want to compare notes? I don't have any that affirms what meditation is.

That is where you are wrong, my friend. If you know you are meditating, then you are not. But when you know you are not meditating, then you are. I know how you hate being told what you know and what you don't, what you are doing and what you ain't. Mother(f--ker)s are like that. They are always telling Tommy what he likes and what he doesn't regardless of what Tommy says.

On second thought, perhaps you are right based on the rules of this forum restricting discussion on texts only.

Mr Chi, is it not appropriate to discuss it here? Philosophical thought and application go hand-in-hand. How are we to study the Tao Te Ching if we exclude evaluation of its action in everyday life? Scholars were assessed on their mastery of the Chinese Classics in the Imperial Exams in terms of their skill in applying principles to statecraft. Philosophy that has no practical application is like a tree that bears no fruit. Perhaps, 死書 (dead learning) is the reason why China, once a center of world economic power a mere few hundred years ago, went to sleep. Mao Zedong had contempt for such useless scholars. He burned their silly books and marched them all off to the farms to do hard labor in the Cultural Revolution.

Not all soldiers are soldiers anymore. It hurts those who care to see this painful truth and watch the destruction of the history, the proud traditions of this supreme organization, the US military. Not to mention the distant call to arms that would summon each and every one to the flag. Not anymore, because the nation has ceased to value its supreme asset and doesn't much care whether the best in the service stayed or left.

And what is that mission? The acquisition of the target in the battle plan based on intelligence from Taoist High Command? Gullibility is a mortal sin (especially in the US Military when your life and those of your team are at stake). And it has nothing to do with the color of your mother's skin. No soldier who is or has been the Tip of the Spear of US Military muscle would accept failure in any mission. It is that serious - no mucking around - be it taking out Al Taqadam or entering the Void. The end is the means. That's the mission, soldier.

I don't think it was the Confucianists and the Taoists who held China together. Don't forget that both Japan and Korea, not to forget Vietnam too, have also endured on account of Chinese philosophy. It wasn't the conscious act of practioners but the unconscious influence on society that Chinese philosophical thought had that protected the Chinese culture from atrophy and disintegration inspite of the harmful injection of western philosophy:Marxist communism.

It is only fair to compare Confucianists with Taoists. One is a hypocrite while the other is an iron-crotch sex maniac. Please, Mr Chi, give Confucius a fair trial. His philosophy of patience, a central Chinese virtue, has enabled the Chinese to survive through unimaginable hardships for thousands of years. No other great civilization is still standing like China today poised to advance further.