sree

This is revealing. So, to you, the end justify the means? This is a moral value of Scarface. "I don't care how you do it, just get it!" With Chinese philosophy, there is a different value at play: the end is the means.

Wow, you actually got it! You're damn right it's twisted. And they would twist the Tao Te Ching into a cockscrew just to get their wine out of the jug. It like the devil demanding entry into Heaven without given up his pitch-fork, horns and pointy tail.

Is it fair to judge Confucius' teaching by the conduct of the Confucian intellectual? Harmonious Emptiness has posted above examples of what Confucius taught. Any comment?

Why do you say that? Are there different types of meditative states? I suspect there is concept of individualism at play here. I do this and you do that and nobody tells me what to do. In arithmetic class in America, the land of the free, are kids allowed to choose any answer they fancy to 1 + 1 = ?.

Actually, the body never goes away in real meditation. On the contrary, every sensation is heightened as the illusory boundary between mind and body fades away.

Jox also asked for opinions relevant to meditation which is not like boiling eggs for breakfast. If your western mind wants to understand non-western matters, you need to think out of the box. Yes, you may move about to address any discomfort as you settle down to meditation. Don't ever ignore the body when it is talking to you about its grouses. Listen to it the way a mother listens to her beloved child to attend to its every need. Meditation is not a mental pre-occupation. It is a wholistic affair of absolute attention.

Confucius taught the virtues of humility and filial piety: putting others before self. Don't you consider Line 5 of Chapter 7 relevant to self-cultivation in this regard? Your translation: 5. 是以聖人後其身而身先， 5. A gentleman always place himself behind but ended up in front.

Do you think there is any connection between 道德經 and 氣功 ?

Mr Chi, 打坐 is pronounced as "da zuo" which does imply sitting down. Why "Zazen" which sounds Japanese? What is the point to meditation, in your opinion?

Next step will be good. Before that, we should become one with Marblehead...all parts including 人鞭... in Korean ginseng wine in a jug. I will come and taste it. Where is your home? Hangzhou?

Ok, analyse this 天人合一. Ok, I will have to square off with you and a side headlock take down should take the wind out of your sails. Dawei will then stuff the rat in.

Like I said, we cannot see eye to eye but I do get your point of view. Your understanding of the Chinese classics allows translation such that the English form equates with your Chinese form. Therefore, you see no reason why you should not consign your product for export to America. There is nothing wrong with free trade between willing sellers and willing buyers.

It's not disdain. I think it is futile for a non-Chinese utilitarian worldview to assimilate Chinese philosophical concepts. Chinese eat dogs, rats and chicken feet. It is easier to hold Marblehead down and force a live black rat down his throat than to drive 故能长生 into his head. A western translation may be digestible but it is not the Tao Te Ching. He is swallowing Campbell Soup. I am just pointing this fact out. I am not judging the westerner who doesn't know better. I am disdainful of the Chinese intellectuals who think nothing of hawking off fake stuff - from knock-off Crocs to bogus Chinese philosophy - to the rest of the world.

I know, Mr Chi. Each new generation asserts its own fashionable values paying no heed to teachings of antiquity. Brats of Generation Y know better than those of Generation X who see Baby Boomers as dinosaurs. This western lack of filial piety 孝 has become the 道(tao) of the Chinese in their worship of western material might. But some things cannot be modernized, eternal things like principles and integrity. The scholar treasures these things passed on to him and polish them for handing down unchanged to the next generation. The way 道(tao) can only be outdated by the corrupt.

Dawei, You are a spiritualist and I am a scholar. How can we ever see eye-to-eye? As a spiritualist, you believe in spirits and Tao magic like Mantak Chia. As a scholar in the finest Chinese tradition, I believe in nothing. Even a western scientist believes that the world is round and we are a life form living on Planet Earth. How can a mind that is warped by beliefs ever attain 天人合一 ? Daoists, Confucianists and Buddhists are believers of their respective ideologies derived from ancient texts. They worship at temples and practise rituals steeped in superstitions. Naturally, each would use the idea of "the way 道 (tao) according to his own concept. Chinese intellectuals with western academic credentials and don't go to temples think they are better but they are just fudging their own airy fairy ideas of the way 道 (tao) to suit western tastes. Chinese philosophical thought as expounded in the classical texts of China have nothing to do with fostering beliefs either about this world or the nether world. It is not even comparable to western philosophy which is useful for sorting out nutjobs and their crooked thinking. I am sorry to disappoint you but the Tao Te Ching is neither mysticism nor does it hold any mystery. The way 道 (tao), as the Chinese character denotes simply means the "way", not just any way but the perfect way in action. The tradition of the Chinese scholar was to seek only one thing: perfect way in action as a human being (天人合一). This quest has tremendous implication for humanity which includes the totality of existence.

But was Confucius talking about morality pertinent to the Chinese culture of his time or did he expound an absolute moral virtue that has universal application across cultures for all time? I feel that Confucius has been under-rated mainly because of a misunderstanding of his teaching. Granted, the Tao Te Ching covers more than just right conduct and does delve into the nature of life itself. But there is a connection between the two: the way 道 (tao) we conduct ourselves in accord with our true nature 德 (what we are) which is not an individual person in a particular society but life itself 天人合一 .

Of course, when it is possible to do so. You don't have to worry about the Tao Te Ching ever getting lost to the Chinese. These days, they are a pretty corrupt lot with their mad struggle for wealth everywhere, especially in China. But there are enough Chinamen around who still respect their traditions and light joss sticks for their ancestors every morning. But there are other good stuff accessible to you, like George Bernard Shaw, Thoreau, Emerson, Jefferson. Preserve those. Even Jiang Zemin studied Abraham Lincoln and could recite his Gettysburg address by heart. Why insist on climbing a tree when you have no legs? (Chinese proverb.)

Lighten up, my friend. There is value in discussing the English version of the Tao Te Ching for you guys. It may not be the real McCoy you are grappling with but think of the sense of self-worth, happiness and inspiration you fellows get. Also, the mental exercise in taking metaphysical leaps is equivalent to mental taichi for staving off alzheimer's disease. The Chinese play mahjong to keep mentally fit. Therapy is not common in China.

The Chinese (like Lin Yutang and Gia Fu-Feng) here in this forum are western-educated intellectuals. We are comfortable bantering in English even though we can break into an all Chinese "ching chong ching chong" affair. Also, at the vernacular level, both English and Chinese are pretty even in terms of mental payload delivery capability. Classical Chinese ( 古文) is something else. It doesn't lend itself to bantering the way westerners do in English. So, we just chuck in 谷神不死, which is the Tao Te Ching proper, and discuss it like you foreigners 別國人 in English.

聖人 shèngrén saint; sage, ruler. This fits the the concept of 天人合一. The scholars would not be wrong. Based on the quality of the classics, I would rank Confucius as a 聖人 I agree. 君子 jūnzǐ nobleman; person of noble character. Seems to me that you prefer to place the Tao Te Ching in a category different from the Confucian Classics. Why? To clarify further for Dawei, the following pertain to spiritualism: 仙人 xiānrén Daoist immortal; celestial being (Su Wukong) 真人 zhenren Daoist spiritual master (Flowing Hands)

I do not discuss the Tao Te Ching with non-Chinese. It is not because I am a racist bigot as Dawai perceives me. All foreign translations are not useable for meaningful discussion because they evoke concepts unconnected to Chinese philosophical thought. You may argue and say, 'what's the big deal, we are all humans". I don't think it is that simple.

But Mr Chi, a little selfishness is still a blemish. In the west, forgiveness is a value; morality is a personal matter and upside down is as acceptable as right side up. Not so in Chinese philosophical thought. Corruption, no matter how minor is unacceptable.

What do you mean by "a Sage is still human"? Consider 常有欲. Would this be a sagely state? Your transalation below for easy reference. Chapter 7 - The Unselfishness 1. 天長地久。 2. 天地所以能長且久者， 3. 以其不自生， 4. 故能長生。 5. 是以聖人後其身而身先， 6. 外其身而身存。 7. 非以其無私邪！ 8. 故能成其私。 Translation in terse English... 1. Heaven and Earth are eternal. 2. The reason they are eternal, 3. Because they do not strive for themselves. 4. Therefore, they are eternal. 5. A gentleman always place himself behind but ended up in front. 6. One keeping oneself in a neutral position will survive. 7. Is not because of his unselfishness! 8. Which gained his personal accomplishment.

"Spirit of the Valley" is just a figure of speech. But let's examine the "never die" aspect of life itself. Chapter 7 talks about this. Shall we move over to Chapter 7 to explore this futher?

A scholar is not a bookworm. And a scholar in the Confucian tradition is not a student of Confucian classics. You are quite limited in your understanding. But that is fine. You are not to be blamed. Mao Zedong has done much harm to the the Chinese people and you are an unfortunate victim.