sree

Well, that depends on your definition of "personal". I am not a sree person. I am a human person, the kind that inhabits all human bodies. All people who are physically healthy, emotionally stable and mentally unimpaired are included in my reality and shares my consciousness. We move as one, sensing the same danger and seeking the same way out like a shoal of fish dashing from Lord Yama's net. I can't find this quote ("what is we") of mine you refer to and don't know the context. At any rate, this Tao of dying is part of the question "What am I?" To this day, I am still confronted with this question. I can state with confidence that I exist and I don't mean the person, Sree, I mean this consciousness, this awareness of existence, this ability to see and touch and taste and smell and hear and reflectively think. I don't accept that there is more than one of "me" (this human consciousness). But there are many different situations in which I live this reality (as other human persons in other life experiences). I could venture further and consider extending "me" to include other animals but I am digressing.

You have lifted things I said out of their respective contexts and lumped them together to make your case. Please don't do that. There is no need to prove me wrong in my debate with Gentlewind. I am trying to disentangle my Tao of dying from Gentlewind's convictions about the right way to deal with life when faced with circumstances such as his. People in his situation (if you are one) should listen to him because what I have to say about my Tao of dying is not applicable. Guys who should take an interest in what I have to say are not on death row and want to be part of a prison break. Not all convicts want to get out and most don't care to. Only those who don't belong in prison do. Only one got out in Shawshank Redemption, the movie.

So, you believe that the consciousness leaves the body which dies. Ok, I am watching your consciousness leaving the body the way I watch a magician performing his trick. Slowly, my friend. Let's follow your reasoning carefully. The consciousness is not the body and not the mind. It is not the thoughts, the feelings and emotions. So, what the f**ck is it? How do I know the prayer of a painless, peaceful death is not answered? Ask the six million Jews who perished by machine gunfire and gassing in the Second World War. Ask the Cambodians who perished in the killing fields. Ask the Chinese who were slaughtered in Nanking, and that poor guy who was hacked to death in Woolwich. Their consciousness have all gone Home like your dad's, right? Talk to them. All these are just the tip of the iceberg of painful human deaths. I have not even mentioned painful animals deaths at the hands of man - those tens of millions of animals slaughtered every goddam day. You know what? You are quite a self-centered guy lost in your own little world. Everything is perfect? This horrible human specie you have been railing about is perfect? Yes, very cute. It's about time we all stop lying and this is what I am trying to tell you. It's better to face the truth head on if we are caught in the grasp of the Grim Reaper. And for guys like me, who are not caught yet, we need to seek the truth of the Buddha who found the deathless state. I don't agree. Animals live a much better life. I have spent days even months watching fish in the middle of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans on my sailboat in dead calm waters. I have spent hours and weeks among grazing animals in the wilds of Africa and Asia. Those were the only peaceful times of my life. Your perception of animal life is the mindset of people programmed by watching TV channels of Animal Planet and National Geographic. I am sorry to learn about your karma of the soldier. In life, there is the ruling class and the underclass that bears the brunt of war and politics. The Tao of dying frees us from that karma. For the record, both Pope Francis and Tenzin Gyatso (14th Dalai Lama) are not village idiots. The former was a Jesuit and the latter has a doctorate in Buddhist Philosophy. In other words, they both can reason and think as proficiently as celebrated professors at the top universities in the world. I applaud you for having a high self-esteem - a good trait - but let's not be arrogant. Each one of us live his or her own reality. You have yours and I have mine. A butterfly lives its reality and a fish lives its reality. No two realities are the same. Therefore, the butterfly's Tao of dying is not the fish's Tao of dying. Consequently, your Tao of dying for a man with an S pouch is not the same as my Tao of dying for a man in perfect health. Am I correct?

Death of the body is a transition? Transition of what? There is only the body and it rots. No one actually dies, you say. This is what the Buddha taught but I don't think that is what you mean. The Buddha taught that the person, in the form of the body, is an illusion. Therefore, no one actually dies and there is only the body that dies You, on the other hand, believe that the person is real and goes Home to continue existing in a supernatural paranormal way after the body dies. We pray that all bodies shutdown peacefully and painlessly. This is a small thing to ask for after a life of misery. More often than not, this prayer is not answered. Nobody is on his own. We are in each others' head posing in costumes fashioned by the mind to play a game like two dogs tugging furiously at a rag - you pulling to one side and I the other. Do you think that lying is a bad thing to do? In nature, predators sneak up on their prey. Both wear camouflage to avoid detection. Only humans take pride in not telling lies. Which is truly bad? To lie without knowing, or to know that you do not lie? You have not given me any reason to believe that you would knowingly tell a lie. You have told the truth as you saw it. So do the Dalai Lama and the Pope. Only crooked politicians are capable of knowingly telling a lie.

How come you reject religions and yet believe in ghosts, spirits and the afterlife? If the Scole Experiment proves the existence of departed spirits, what about documented exorcisms of demonic possessions? Do they prove the existence of the Devil?

To regard your body as a temporary home is to infer a whole bunch of beliefs (i.e. mindsets and programming) about what you are. Do you believe that after the body is junked, you are going Home? Even if that is true, you still have to get through the bad part – the dying of the body through old age and disease. The Tao of dying has to side-step all that ugly mess. Gentlewind and I are in a poker game and I am calling his bluff. I am not saying that he is deliberately lying to me. I think he is lying to himself. This is nothing unusual or diabolical because telling lies is our way of life and we are all lying to ourselves, as well as, to one another all the time. The Tao of dying involves coming to terms with and debunking the mindset that we have become immortal spiritual inhabitants of temporal corporeal bodies. This mindset gets us stuck with the body and forces us to suffer its demise. Spirituality, as we understand and talk about it, is a superstition. You are welcome to challenge me on this statement. But if you do, be prepared to defend your beliefs in ghosts and fairies. Learn never to get sick means never to get sick in every sane sense – body, mind and heart.

I feel like a dad pleading with his daughter to not run away with a cad.

You've got it right. So what is the right response? The way Emperor Nero fiddled and sang while Rome burned? I would rather seek the Tao of dying. It will be like a lifeboat for all who want to bail out without suffering the pain of a toxi reality.

No choice in getting sick? What does that imply? Helplessness? Are we neither accountable for our unhealthy way of life nor responsible for the pestilence we bring upon ourselves? Do you think cancers are as natural as roses and arthritis as God-given as rainbows? Pain and suffering are not two separable things. To experience bodily pain and choose not to suffer is to drive a wedge between your body and your heart. If you can be that brutal to yourself, you lose sensitivity to all pain, be it in other people, the animals or the earth. And heartlessness is the most horrifying of all human diseases.

None should even be touched by it. This is my founding belief. I do not accept pain as a part of life which includes the birth and death of the body. All that screaming of agony in the labor rooms is also unacceptable. No birthing stress in nature. What's going wrong with women? This is the way, our birthright. None should have to struggle for these; and yet, none has it. Suffering UNAVOIDABLE pain without fear is commendable. An example of this is Aron Ralston, the canyoneer who was trapped by a boulder and he amputated his own arm to free himself. The object lesson to learn here is to NEVER EVER get our arms trapped by boulders. There is no value in admiring guys like Aron and be inspired to have no fear when amputating our own arms. Which is better? To get sick and learn to hang tough like Gentlewind or learn never to get sick?

There is nothing positive or negative about life or death of the body. All things come and go in a never-ending cycle. But how do we fit in with this scheme of things? I am talking about us. Do you know what "us" is? One conditioned way of thinking is to regard us as the human race. Another conditioned way of thinking is to regard us as spirits that will depart to God knows where after our bodies die. What is your way of thinking? Tell me, and let's find out if it is also conditioned. Are you talking about the birth and death of the body? I don't think anyone here is debating against the death of the body. Elsewhere in other threads there may be talk about Taoist immortality. But we are not into that here. Death has never been known to run away from anyone. The Grim Reaper takes no prisoners and none escapes his sycthe.

Gentlewind’s position is admirable only if it cannot be avoided – like the Passion of Christ: no snivelling or begging for mercy from the first lash of the whip to the crowning of torns till death on the cross. Jesus did not want Gentlewind’s position. He prayed in the garden at Gethsamane to be spared such a fate. I just don't get it why there is this admiration of suffering. Apart from Jesus and the Buddha, the rest of mankind seem drawn to suffering like moths to the fire, and bugs to the bug-zapper. The other fall back position will only be discussed with those in the expedition after they have burned their bridges and left the shores where the certainty of a fate such as Gentlewind’s is sealed.

First of all, before I get into the serious business of this thread, let me not forget to play. I notice that you perform music. What kind of instrument do you play or are you a conductor of an orchestra? I am pretty unspiritually low-class when it comes to music performance. I don't play Bach on the piano. I play the Fender guitar with a band: Like this guy: Yeah. How much do we know about this body of a plane that we are riding in? And I don't mean biological knowledge. What do you mean by "accept"? Go down with the plane? No way! Giving up the body because it can't last forever is the intelligent thing to do. There comes a time when the body goes its way and you go yours - like two friends parting with affection. Good commentary on living, my friend. What we need from you now is an equally good commentary on dying. Elsewhere? Where do you think we are going when the plane is going down? Don't mess around. This is a serious subject. Imagine you are the captain. The plane is going down. You get on the P.A. system to inform your passengers that it's MAYDAY and the plane is going down. Damn it captain! Thanks for telling us where the plane is going. Where the hell are we going!?

When Ernest Shackleton, the Irish explorer, recruited a crew for his expedition to the Antartic, 5000 people applied and said "I am in" even though it was clearly spelt out that "safe return is not guaranteed". Those people didn't have to go and had everything to lose; and yet, they were prepared to face death in freezing temperatures just for an adventure. The success in our search for the Tao of dying is also not guaranteed. But in our case, we have nothing to lose since - if we don't try - death is inevitable anyway and the chances of escaping the horrid process of dying - as the body painfully disintegrates with age - are slim to none. So, our expedition to find freedom from a terrible fate, by contrast, is eminently worthwhile and we have the valor of desperation to succeed. Only the dumb and the dispirited will not try. What's the fall back position, if we don't make it? I think there are two fall back positions. The last one would be to choose Gentlewind's way.

Married 24 years. And you revived her about 20 years ago after her fall. That was about 4 years after you guys married. She must have been a young and pretty bird back then. I can understand why you didn't want to let her go. But why was she pissed. Four years with you and she would rather die already? You must have been a bad boy. Anyway, 24 years together speaks well of you. I am glad you brought her back. Spicy shrimp curry? You sound Chinese in a happy home with a good wife. Was it an arranged marriage according to Taoist horoscope? Can you share some details of your out-of-body experiences? Some of us here have assumed that there is no division between spirit and body. Very interesting take you have here. Death of the body is as natural as its birth. This is why I see no value in raising the dead as told in the Jesus story. It is not consistent with my perception of wise conduct. I am more interested in the "death" of the person, this consciousness of reality. You see the body as a multi-dimesional sensory suit. How does it work (as you understand it)?

Seems to me that you have found a way to handle physical suffering. Remarkable as your way to deal with dying and death may seem, I would rather find another way. My instincts tell me that the right way is to protect the body from harm and the mind absolutely secure. Developing a positive mental attitude to keep laughing in the face of bodily disintegration is above my pay grade in this incarnation. For this life, I will attempt the Buddha's way to seek the Tao of dying. I checked this out. They are talking about ghosts. I believe you. Just as you choose to be happy in the face of pain, I choose to be sad at the sight of human suffering. Not everyone can psyche himself up to face physical trauma like Samurai warriors. What about the babies too young to even know that they are dying from mortal wounds, small children suffering the ravages of AIDS, and old people tortured by the fear of death? It's not just about me that I am seeking the Tao of dying.

You mean a transformation in consciousness that releases you from struggling against the messy process of dying? As in the way we look at and love the setting sun and the turning leaves in the cycle of life? Reddened swollen legs are the price you pay for longevity. What do you mean by "us"? Can the dog ever die? Does the putrefying corpse has a connection with the dog? The association between the two might be an illusion. Your Buddha could be confused. I heard that another Buddha was asked whether a child who had grown to be a man, was he the same child or another. And that Buddha answered:"He is neither the same child nor another."

I don't think that it is helpful to imagine how - when our time comes - to face death without medical help. It would be willful and the more you think, the more fearful the whole affair becomes. Before medicine was the shaman and his rituals. It doesn't get scarier than that. Yes, I think so. But I am not talking about how to deal with Lord Yama and his fearsome claws. I am not talking about facing the Grim Reaper. If that guy comes knocking, it's game over for us. That is when the fear of death and the unholy mess of dying begins. Dying is hardly ever quick and clean. The best scenario is feeling tired and taking a nap never to wake up again. Chances are, it's going to be messy and drawn out. Getting knocked out by excruciating pain would be a blessing. At some point, the pain from cancer cannot be masked by painkillers but you suffer on. Then there are the weeping wounds of diabetes where you watch your feet rot away till it gets so bad that your legs have to be amputated. Next phase of torture is wheelchair misery, bedsores and end-stage renal disease. Nobody wants to think about this. You are asking great questions. Do you know the brilliant Steve Jobs never found the answers? Yet, he was into the spirituality of India and Zen Buddhism from his late teens till he died. He was searching more desperately for the answers when they found cancer in his pancreas all the way to his eventual death a few years later. I mention this to give us a heads up. Looking for the answers is not a cake walk. And I don't believe that it is that can be done on your own. Steve Jobs could never even invent the iPhone on his own. He needed a team of top-notch engineers. To find the Tao of dying is a much bigger deal. You mentioned that there is nothing to fear than fear itself. I feel that the Tao of dying needs to side-step the messy process of dying - including the fear of death itself. We need A-players for this venture to find the answers. Are you in? Do you want to dent the universe?

Thanks for the confession. People are terrified of cancer. A woman I met in Dublin told me about her double mastectomy just last year before Angelina Jolie recently came out about her own breasts removal. It was an excruciating process, she said. Three drains on each side into pouches after the operation. The breasts reconstruction was just as painful. Yet, women would rather face all that suffering to avoid cancer. Granted, gentlewind is facing up to a horrid situation remarkably well. But we are missing the crucial point. Wounded warriors in America are running around with prostethics and bravely living out their lives on track chairs. Surely, they should be commended too. But is the Tao of living about a life free from physical torture or is it about riding our dragons with mutilated and diseased bodies? What do you mean when you say that Gentlewind has twigged it? Let's not forget his support system twigging it too. Care-givers and tax-payers are enabling the twigging in first-world societies where riding the dragon is an expensive affair. In America, 25% of seniors are driven into bankruptcy and losing their homes due to medical expenses from all that twigging. The situation gets really bad in third world countries where the sick are left to twig on their own. I think animals are the true heroes. No twigging. No dragon riding. Just the Tao of dying. Is that better?

You remembered when she left to the minute? How long were you married? I am losing you here. You are speaking of her in the present tense. Is she still communicating with you?

The interview was about a spiritual subject. Do you think the interviewer was appropriately attired even if the dress was adjusted? You put on riding gear for riding, swimsuit for swimming, The Dalai Lama is a funny guy who is always mirthful. If he was watching the interview, do you think he would laugh when she testified to attaining Nirvana?

What so funny, Cat? I am really fearful of gentlewind's bodily situation. The Buddha was too. He was in perfect physical condition but on seeing the old, the sick and the dying, he was so upset that he gave us his perfect life to seek freedom from ever having to face what gentlewind is going through. Is your understanding of the Buddha story not the same as mine? I am glad you have joined us in this conversation.

I am not blaming you. It is not you that people run away from. It is the cancer situation that scare people off. Death and disease are not attractive to people in this world. Sick people, dying people and dead people in coffins, funerals and cemeteries are bad stuff that other people veer away from unless they are stuck with it as in the case of family members. Give a link to a forum where people enjoy talking about death. Are you enjoying life? I don't have a S pouch, I don't have nerve pain in my neck, I don't have arthritis in my hands, I don't have cancer nor 15 other health problems. In fact, I never had a headache or been ill for as long as I can remember. I am in perfect health and in peak physical condition. Yet, I am not enjoying life because you have a diseased body, because your poor wife have to bear the burden of having to tend to you, because that poor guy had to be hacked to death in Woolwich, I am not happy because I do not know why I exist to bear witness to all these human miseries. I could look at the moon or distract myself with a tart but I am unable to. I am drawn to your misery even thought you are out to lunch over your situation. Lust is a deadly sin. Chapter 12 tells explains why I see a dangerous tart and you see a harmless pretty woman. I see a snake and you see a rope.

Ok, let's keep your advice in mind. Death and dying is not popular at all. You do notice that although this thread has the highest rating (over 400 posts) by far, it has dwindled down to mainly just two participants - namely you and I. First of all, death is not an easy subject to crack. Secondly, nobody likes to talk about it, not even you as I have noticed. Facing one's own mortality demands confrontation with the fear of death. I have also noticed that other posters slipped away when you appeared with your ileoanal pouch and bouts with cancer. Enjoying life and entertainment is distraction. If I wanted to be distracted and enjoy life, I would also slip away to be entertained by a pretty woman instead of talking to you on a serious topic about dying. So, stop clowning and don't use pretentious humor as a ploy to distract us from examining the issue. Truth is painful and there are no painkillers to deal with it.

We must not quarrel like bitter women. Diversion is no crime but obsessive compulsion is a disorder. So, let's not obsess over our diversions. I don't have to learn from my own mistakes. I learn from mistakes other people make. Does Jesus ever need to learn from his own mistakes with women? Walk the right path and no harm touches you. Chapter 55 says 含德之厚. This is a powerful teaching. Thus, a Buddha is protected - 猛兽不据. Heaven is not that easily attainable. You have to earn it. For those who rejects self-cultivation, Hell awaits. You said that the human race is messing up the world. Where do you think these crazy makers are heading when they die? Let's not get carried away. I brought up the Woolwich incident to point to the human emotion that caused the savagery. Focus on the emotion and don't get distracted by the conspiracy. Are you implying that I am lustful? Spit it out then! If you think you have a point to make, make it directly. Don't beat about the bush. This is not a conversation between two women. Lust is a human emotion that transforms me into a lecherous man who sees a tart. Are we in agreement so far? Now, the very perception of a tart precipitates two options: I either honestly confront the fact that I am a sleazebag ogling a tart (Option 1) or I deny the corruption and see myself as a nice guy admiring a pretty woman with great legs (Option 2). I chose Option 1 and tried to wake you up. You chose Option 2 and slams me for being insulting to the woman. Who is right? Tell you what. Why don't you show that youtube to your wife and daughter and argue your case. I don't need to defend myself and will accept the verdict of your beautiful wife and dutiful daughter. Fair enough? Talk to me after you have gotten the verdict from your wife and daughter. Then, let's not be instigated. America is a Christian nation. This means that we are defined by Christian values that we all try to live up to. The UK is more so a Christian nation. This doesn't mean that every American or Briton goes to church. It means that they are havens that third-world emigrants escape to from persecution and deprivation in their home countries. I didn't realize that Amsterdam had a Red Light district. I thought it was a tourist attraction along the canals I stumbled into one time. Europeans are quaint in that way. The Nederland is a Christian nation also. Being Christian doesn't mean being perfect. We will see. The game is not over yet.