CloudHands

Hi ! I think before that ultimate stage, there is long to very long stage where one starts to feel and to fill up the ldt. I think anyone will feel in time that presence inside his belly but it starts little, subtle. There is one method specific to Yang taiji called dynamic push hands or dynamic power push hands. I will not give a description because it's very specific and would bring more useless questions than useful answers. Thus I really think that even without that specific practice it is possible to discover and fill up the dantian by practicing more ordinary qi gong. If no energetic blockage qi goes where the mind goes, that's what most qi gong works are about : unlock and discover your subtle being by developing your inner sensitivity. I'm always a little surprise to see how much people focus more on some extraordinary results than on the process itself. Process that should be more linked to inner sensibility than qi accumulation for most people IMO. Looks like Neidan to me... but maybe ! This is a level I haven't been exposed. So you have felt that electric qi (that's a question) ? I did not. Thus I have seen and felt amazing things including distance energetic work with factual results on a 18 month old girl. I see no need to blame anyone in this discussion. On this video David Verdesi who studied with JC (not Jesus Christ but no hazard here) talks about the most precious thing he learnt from him. I don't relate much to that experience as I'm not christian nor particularly good at believing but one can obviously link it to other traditions. I think it's very humbling (and certainly not incompatible with meditative practices).

Hi ! So you know people emitting qi like electricity ?! Can you please explain the contradiction you're talking about, that's -for me- the interesting point in your post.

I think that feeling qi or places actually starts as a very trivial experience. One may expect to discover suddenly something incredible. No it's not like that in my experience it's strangely both obvious and subtle so that we don't pay attention, the feeling at the beginning is more like being very intimate with yourself. Like you find your center, your self. What I want to say is that you may be on it and expect something else, something spectacular. Well not necessarily, and probably not at the beginning. Later with proper qi gong practice it will probably become a more catchy experience. Something you may want to try : Locate the place everyone has described before in the lower center of your belly with the idea of going deep inside. Listen that place for a moment (with you attention) Then put your expiration on that place like you were slowly heating embers and it should become much more obvious. You can do that gently as long as you feel comfortable doing so and not for too long to begin with. Ultimately my advice is go to a teacher that will provide experience, support and proper moves to help practicing

Trying to make me talk ? Yep there is a huge gap between early daoist texts and posterior religious developments. That's how I interpret your quotes. Edit : but clearly some practices help a lot practically (IMHO)

Ahah I honestly like that very taoish and hippies must have loved it.

Ahah Ok I understand better now. Here I see beginners aiming for the "highest" bar instead of taking the next step. But among the people that I practice with I see many of them not taking the practice where it can lead. Because they don't realize the necessity of regular steady work and what they could possibly reach, they don't see the possibilities. On the same time to straighten a body/mind is indeed a very difficult task. More by curiosity than by need, you guys made we want to learn about Dzogchen.

Hi freeform, it did not sounded like bragging at all I don't have much to say about Buddhism because it's definitely not my path. Just one thing for now, you said : "None of this means I'm particularly advanced... in fact, when training with my teachers and the other students, it becomes pretty obvious how much most people like to 'lower the bar' of attainment to match their experience. " I liked to read that (even if I'm not sure what about it concretely applies, if you are up to develop...) because I tend to see the opposite much more often.

Maybe ! As I haven't been really sick for the last 6 years I don't know what you're talking about. But you're probably correct. I also use qi gong. In winter I'm close to 50 taiji/50 static position (mostly seated qi gong or meditation). What I don't do much is dynamic qigong but I'm interested in it. I know many moves except almost all of them are part of the Yang curriculum (same system) and I find the forms more complete. You should watch Damo's video about alchemical errors, that's very related so you may be be interested. I'm all ears, always something to learn ! But before anything I'd be pleased if tell me where these ideas come from if you may (linage, history, ...). I do think it's an action but very subtle maybe more like an intention. And I completely agree with the idea there are qualities that one develop over time. I remember once I told my teacher "It's so much work to be aware of the bai huei AND to all the other things at the same time" and he said that's overtime it's more about a whole attitude that you get. Now I understand and I also understand that going back and forth between that global sensation and tiny details/changes/news makes me progress as much as keeping infused in these practices. Interesting discussion guys :).

Damo Mitchell providing a guideline for conversation on TDB

The thing is there is not only one way to do the form. Actually in one life nobody does the same form twice because there is so many things to do/feel and your intent can differ according your motivation. You can practice the very same way Qi Gong is done, that's basically what the 10 principles describe it's the general framework and globally they describe one (qigongish) attitude. But there are many options. If you are more martial art oriented maybe you'll observe particularly the two foot - hand chains. Maybe you want to observe the full and the empty, maybe today you feel tense so you'll practice with large moves, maybe you want to focus on the alternate compression/decompression phases or link the 2 hands (fluidity) or just cycle a few moves... The options are infinite but they all nourish the form just like the other forms (weapons, partner, etc) nourish the big solo form (imho). Yesterday I watched the damo's video on alchemical errors, that one is also interesting and fun. Actually he describes why I think too much theory kill practice imo, because you push you thoughts, wishes and expectations on instead of just careful observation while you practice with a framework.

If I may, it's not specially to the feet but rather to the lower body. When we get tense qi rise to the shoulders, that's what you want to avoid primarily -and you want to be aware of your whole body- but when you get sung then qi sink to the dantian (that's its place). 2. Contain the chest, expand the back. – Han Xiong Ba Bei - 含胸拔背 When you depress the chest naturally qi will sink down to the Dan tian. If you expand the chest then qi will raise to the chest causing top heaviness and one will float. To expand the back is to allow the qi to adhere to the back. If one sinks the chest and you will be able to expand the back naturally. Then one can project qi from the spine. Ba means to pull up or out, to draw up by suction. Bei means to carry something on the back or shoulders. I have use the word expand in the text but the meaning behind these words is far more profound. https://www.thetaichilife.com/yang-cheng-fus-10-essential-principles.html

Damo also said something that pinched my attention I don't recall exactly but in substance he said. OK i got it he said "nature is the lowest form of connection to the divine". Here is whole whole context : I found that interesting and also true. Good environment helps but the divine is inside that's what mean for instance doing the microcosmic orbit. Edit my spoiler code doesn't work... don't know why.

Yes I heard that part. I think that focusing on something doesnt imply to force it but yes for many it is needed to (re)learn that. So in some way what he promotes is safer. Safer but maybe less effective (IMO). Yes it is but not only and there is several kinds of taiji all having energetic aims but not all have the same training system. Yang Taiji has the slow even moves of qi gong and the moves are smoothed but actually it's power-taiji, you are supposed to be soft but incredibly firm when needed. It's clearly not only about martial art : - many prominent Taiji teachers started with/because of poor health - I know some Yang tai chi teachers that are also healers even working with some famous hospital. - the idea of both emptying the mind and sinking the qi to the LDT are among of 10 basic principles - but yes among many others things so it's harder and less effective in terms of direct feelings but long term speaking, not so sure. Qi Gong is great too ! I'm sorry if I started something like a contest between the two, wasn't my purpose. Back to Qi Gong ! back to Qi Gong ! ^^

Interesting, many valuable informations, some good reflections. I'm mostly in agreement with what he says but I'm not so sure about the container but maybe. Few thoughts : He says than the low dantian's presence is not something natural, it has to be created (and you need to build the container first) and the qi gongs hand moves towards the belly help beginners doing so but are not furthermore necessary once it's done. Any body part sings its own melody once you take the time to listen, including the LDT. The idea that the LDT exist per se and by extension cultivation is not something we do "naturally" makes sense. I have witnessed that even among sporty people most don't develop some subtle physical conscience and things like aerobics or body-building tend to reinforce that machine-body feeling by doing simple repeated unconscientised moves that become automated then (but it can happen with tai chi or qi gong too...). In my experience qi goes where attention is. He advocates the idea that diffuse attention fuel the LDT better. Strangely it is more something I relate to meditation or taiji chuan than qi gong. When I meditate I naturally mind-move to my lower body, the remaining "effort" being to push the bai huei up. When he says the body is stupid... no the body is not, maybe he's lazy but certainly not stupid. The body is slower than the mind and this inertia is a blessing ! Otherwise we would see human-torches or human-puddle any time. Qi gong is more alchemycally productive than Taiji, possibly. Well, it focuses on only one thing at a time so effects/feelings are more obvious but not sure it's more effective. Taiji is about wholeness of the body embodying few energetic principles and doing so while moving. Anyway it's a good idea to back up Taiji with static Qi Gong and to have some dynamic Qi Gong to work with.

Idir the greatest Kabyle singer died saturday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuGOuvX0r_8

American gold nugget found !

Yes ! I love them too. I'm not sure I have already listened the Amber album... will do soon. Tycho sounds a lot like Thievery Corporation to me some very nice easy listening electro.

if someone doesn't know... enjoy

I liked that

Inner knowing