takaaki

You don't like to be lumped together with other people? Ok, I will keep that in mind and put you in your own box from now on. I know that I tend to lump people together and put them into different categories based on their mind-sets for faster targeting and speedier processing. This is the way the entrepreneurial mind works these days in any industry including the military. Case in point: soldiers are not taught to deal with Dawei or ChiDragon on an individual basis in the theatre of war. The enemy combatants, if Chinese, are all lumped together and psychologically profiled for neutralizing. It is true that there is this pervasive belief in individuality that each person is special and unique. If you are in the top 1%, you could get away with indulging in this fantasy having your clothes tailored exactly, your cars hand-made to your personal specs, etc.. I didn't know I was dealing with ego-centric billionaires here at Tao Bum. Still, I will treat you special because I like high self-esteem. It is the mind-set of an American Taoist. Why are you against the "received text"? Do you have any reason to doubt the judgment of the native scholars? Do not confuse American liberalism with pragmatism which is the Way of the American Taoist. The former is a cult-like close-mindedness while the latter is founded on common-sense. The Dao De Jing has to make practical sense or it's pointless regardless of textual form. I pick what works, the way Marblehead does, and and disregard what is unrelated, the way Chi Dragon does. Nothing sexual was implied? I wish. How would you read the lines below? This is ChiDragon's received version: 7. Not knowing the copulation of male and female but self erected. 8. Because of the tremendous energy, This is Hendricks whom you love: 6. He does not yet know the meeting of male and female, yet his organ is aroused— 7. This is because his essence is at its height. Any man who studies the above and come away reflecting on a full bladder has got to be Chinese with no knowledge of English. Admittedly, the Chinese text makes no reference of a sexual nature of any kind. It's the English translations that are colored by Freudian fantasy.

Yangzi (揚子) said: 人而無禮，焉以為德？

Ok, so what is Chapter 10 saying to you? I can accept your authority on what the Tao Te Ching says to you. But this Chinese Classic behaves like a woman who would say a different thing to each of her many lovers. You obviously think you are her one true love. Every bum in this cathouse does feel the same way. So, please tell me what Chapter 10 is saying to you. You are quite right about my lack of knowledge of the Tao Te Ching. This is because I have been unable to examine it directly. I can only opine on the Taoism that has been derived from the examinations that others like you have conducted on the Tao Te Ching. I will restrict my examination to what you bums have to say in this thread and subforum. Is that ok? No, my opinions are not the only correct ones. And I really think you ought to mind your own business with regard to what you perceive as my attacks on others. If I have been insensitively cruel in my interactions, I am sure the adults here are quite capable of calling me out. Off topic. No comment. I am losing you here. What you say here about the moral text and moral repercussions sounds correct and I agree. But I take exception to your rejection of American Taoism as “illegitimate”. What about Wudang Taoism and Mao Shan Taoism? How come they are kosher and the American version is not? Each one has the right to pick up the Tao Te Ching and come away with what works for him or her. Self-determination is the grounding principle of American Taoism. No one gets to tell the American Taoist what is right for him or her without moral repercussions. They don’t, and they won’t. I wonder why you would need to point this out? Comment noted. You have made yourself very clear. I look forward to discussing your views on Chapter 10.

Actually, I quite like Aaron's tone. He is speaking straight from his heart even though his view that the early settlers were crackpot Christians is shocking. He could be right, but even if he is wrong at least he is honsest about his perception. And that, for me, is the critically important thing for self-cultivation. In opening and closing the Heavenly Gate, Aaron has given us his take on the going-ons here. 能為雌乎? Perhaps not to you because he was quite forceful. And I think I would like to discuss his views within the context of Chapter Ten right here in this sub-forum.

What is the difference? Marblehead is an American Taoist who accepts material reality without necessarily being materialistic; he is not someone who monetizes everything and sees value only in dollar terms. I think the American Taoist is the better form. He watches the Chinese Taoist light the joss-sticks, do the taichi, and doesn't say a damn thing. And he is kind to the western Taoist who isn't a materialist and somewhat off his rocker like his eastern counterpart..

Come on, guys (and I mean scholars ChiDragon and Dawei). You can't keep shifting the goal posts to fit your game, can you? Who corrected the received version? Your approach to fixing the Dao De Jing is making a strong case for Flowing Hands version received from Li Erh. This looks like American liberalism at work: throwing away traditions that cramp permissiveness. At any rate, how do you read "sexual organ of an innocent child fully extended" into 朘作 ? I know classical Chinese is metaphorical but this is really stretching it. I prefer the original two characters 全作 which means one's uncompromised competency (even though one is untouched by the union of female and male). I know that. I read it as the vital essence or inherent potential of one's being. As I said, the entire idea rests on two characters: 精 and 至. You regard the 精 as energy (of a sexual kind) while I take it to represent potent power (of a human kind). Consequently, while you have an erection, I get the full blooming of human magnificience. This is why I read subject lines in Chapter 55 the way I did: Even though one is not initiated into sex, one's full competency to act as a human being is intact, one's potent power can expand to the extreme. I feel my reading is consistent with the Chapter's context which is about an uncorrupted child-like way of being that protects one from life's dangers (bees and snakes will not sting, beasts will not devour, predators will not seize) and even in tenous circumstances (when bones are brittlle and tendons are weak) the clinging to survival will be strong. And Chapter closes with the warning that without the Way, one will not do well and come to a sad and untimely end. Sexual erection seems out of place, I think. But what do I know.

Let's discuss this. Chinese text in Line 7 refers to innocence of female/male union and yet 全作. This does not mean only kids are virgins. Line 8. 精之至也 is quite straightforward. Only two characters here control the meaning of the line: 精 and 至. What does this say directly without the interference of English translation?

Manitou said that the need for abundance is rooted in fear. Do you think that the desire for stability is rooted in insecurity (which is a form of fear)? Do you feel that you were born at the birth of the body? I am just asking. It's not a leading question. Let's say you were born at the birth of the body. You came into existence and you peer through the Heavenly Gate (your five senses, said ChiDragon) at the world. What's the point? Is life some kind of a theme park that you wander through, taking your rides, eating pop corn and candy floss, and having fun until you head for the exit? We all have some scars to show, I'm sure. So, what's the point to all this? Do you know? This is also not a leading question. Just asking.

I think we are having a communication problem here. Abstention from sexual activity alone does not constitute celibacy. Celibacy is more than just avoiding physical sexual activity. It is a religious vow to stay unmarried and stay away from even thinking about sex for the sake of spiritual purity. As I pointed out earlier, Chapter 55 mentioned a wholesome person who is able to function perfectly even without any carnal knowledge. Such a person would be nice to have around. He doesn't rape, or covet other people's wives. he doesn't mess around with interns in the Oval Office or maids in the hotel. He is like a gay guy around women. But he is as virile as James Bond.

Yes. Monks practise celibacy. Some Hindu Brahmin men who have wives also practise celibacy and refrain from sex with their wives for spiritual purposes. Yes. For most men, astaining from sexual activity is a deliberate and willful act because they are driven by sexual desire. They have to struggle against this desire for various reasons. If it is for religious or spiritual reason, then the committment to avoid sex is called celibacy. If the reason is to stay faithful to their wives or girlfriends while they are away, then the committment to avoid sex with other women is called fidelity. There are some people who are naturally undriven by sexual desire. They can do it but they are not possessed by it. They don't have to make a deliberate, willful, committment to avoid sex. Chapter 55 speak of such a human condition: 7. Not knowing the copulation of male and female but self erected. 8. Because of the tremendous energy,

We wish. This planet is filled with wounded warriors. (Do you contribute to this?) Your studying the Dao De Jing is an effect. Can you identify the cause, the true cause and nothing but the cause?

Where is the contradiction? The body does not retain semen which is continually produced and re-absorbed by the body if no sexual activity occur. A natural absence of sexual activity is not necessarily the outcome of the practise of celibacy which is a commitment to avoid having sex. Practising semen retention is an unnatural, deliberate and wilfull act on the part of the practitioner messing around with his mind and/or body.

Yes, it is correct to consider it so. But what is your point? Please clarify if there is one.

It is you who have the difficulty to abstain, not the body. Don't confuse the two and see them as one. You are not the body. The body has its needs which are sane and natural. Your needs are are something else. Below are some of needs which have nothing to do with the body. 1. Helping the poor. 2. Donate a kidney. 3. Having a girlfriend. 4. Sex with other men. 5. Tapping into the Tao. You may list down more and I will point to those that have nothing to do with the body.

The Heavenly Gate is the doorway between the inner and the outer world? I would never have guessed this in a million years. So, when someone look into your eyes, he would be peering into your inner soul? Also, if we close our mouths, we prevent the leaking out of secrets from our hearts? Is this how we hide from each other behind the Heavenly Gate? Manitou talked about the ending of separation between she and another by tapping into the Tao to relax the muscle and empty the mind. Does the inner and outer world become one then as the Heavenly Gate disappear? Are such females real or metaphorical like the Heavenly Gate? American females are battle-axes. They are scary. The Yin seems to have gone to the men. Why do you think people get perturbed? Why this need to know and get connected the way its done through facebook and twitter? Or turning on the TV to get the news. Chapter 80 talks about not doing this: 11. Looking over the neighboring countries, 12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other, 13. People grew old until death, 14. Neither socialized with one another.

Every interpretation in Tao Bum is sure fire. You'd better believe it. One even comes direct from Li Erh (aka Lao Tzu).

Not having sex at all is not an issue. If a male tiger never meets a female tiger in its life, it lives out its life just fine. It's not celibacy and its not semen retention. Same for a man who never has sex, if he is as sane as a tiger. He is neither a celibate nor is he practising semen retention. Buddhist monks and Taoist priests are not as sane as tigers. They struggle against the desire for sexual stimulation and this mental battle is called celibacy. They think they are practising semen retention but that is not true. The body recycles semen that is continually produced and re-absorbed. Not having sex is not semen retention. Not emptying your bowels is faeces retention. The body doesn't need to have sex but it needs to empty its bowels.

Observing nature is like watching a wise man. You can’t learn a damn thing about the dangers of living watching a wise man in action because nothing ever happens to him. But you can learn a lot watching a fool. He’d trip every booby trap there is in the battlefield and draw fire from every sniper holed up in Sadr City. Sightings of the fool in action are reported in many chapters of the Dao De Jing. It speaks to the fool. This is why we read it.

By abundance, as a natural fact, I meant the abundance in Nature. If life was created by God, he certainly made sure we have everything in abundance: the air we need to breathe, the water we need to drink, the grasslands upon which animals graze on, the bounty of the sea, and the vastness of the Earth that is our home. Man was literally born rich. And to top all that, we were blessed with an amazing mental ability to enhance our lives in a paradise without limits. This legacy of abundance was not just for you or the top 1% or even for all mankind but for everything that exists. What happened? How is it that we now need to know when we have enough because some three billion people are dying from not having enough to stay alive; and, also, because everybody may risk losing access to clean air and water? What kind of a fool can mess up this bad? If you want to live with the Tao, you’d better have money. Manah doesn’t come from Heaven. No loaves and fishes. Enough money is as essential as enough air to breathe. You’d better believe it no matter what other Taoists say. The American Taoist has his eye on the bottom line and his feet firmly planted on solid ground. Being spiritual doesn’t mean going cuckoo. He is absolutely sane and in his element either in the woods seeking inspiration or in the corporate boardroom dealing with survival. Like they tell him in airplanes, he tends to his needs first before helping others with theirs.

The American Way, which I espouse, does come across as heartless and insensitive. So are the violent contractions of childbirth pushing out the newborn oblivious to the distress of its mother. I am like a stork with gangly long legs. The Daoist Way you speak of is one of diligent cultivation, incessant polishing, ever higher ascendance on the stairway to the Dao. You are like a duck with stubby short legs. Each has its place in the scheme of things. Why do you want to shorten my legs and lengthen yours? The self is a fact of life. It is the center of action. Self-reliance is a wholesome primal impulse of self-preservation like physical hunger. To deny self-reliance is to deny physical hunger. This is silly. We have to eat. This is a fact. We don’t have to find the current which is a non-fact. When there is no abundance, there is fear. This is a natural response. When there is no air, you gasp, turn blue and suffer brain death in 6 minutes. When there is no wealth but a $16 trillion dollar debt, you’d better get very serious before the herd turns and start dumping US Treasuries. Abundance is a natural fact of life and the self-worth of the American Taoist is a measure of his net-worth. Prosperity is not a cursed thing. Poverty is. Making $86 million a year is a good thing. Living on food stamps and waging class warfare is not. To feel no fear when there is no abundance is to have gone completely mad. Do you think that the undercurrent of the Tao is found in the slums of Mumbai? Or is it more likely to be found in Marblehead’s fish ponds and garden? The best argument against the Dao is a 5 minute converstaion with the average Daoist. Look, Manitou, the power of the Dao is not meant for invoking spirits and conducting group therapy. It’s meant for the masters of the universe in their exciting drive to push ahead in bringing about a better world. If we just let things happen, the bottom half of mankind will just sink faster into the bowels of the earth. You are throwing a Christian blanket of passivity over an essentially vibrant Dao. Can’t we discuss together in harmony? You and I are as different in nature as the moon is unlike the sun. Yin and Yang. Earth and Heaven. The village idiot and the scholar. Each has a respective place in the cosmos for balance.

I did. Bodhiharma was recorded as the guy who taught the Shaolin monks that fearsome form of Kung Fu. He did that after 9 years sitting in a cave looking at a wall because they wouldn't let him in the Shaolin Temple. He cut his eyelids off to keep his eyes open to avoid falling asleep during meditation and when he finally emerged from the cave, his legs were atrophied. This is why Bodhiharma dolls have no legs. And you expect me to believe that this legless wacko taught Kung Fu to Shaolin fighters who bear the marks of the dragon and tiger burnt into their flesh as they lift a red hot urn of coals held between their fore-arms upon graduation? Watch the Bollywood movie fight scenes. They are ridiculous. Even the Indians laugh at them.

I do wish you would speak in plain English for once; the way people do when speaking to a cab driver or a sick dog.

I have also noticed your Lines 9 and 10 (of Chapter 10). What is the meaning of "opening and closing the heavenly gate"? And what has this to do with feminization?

Are you looking for philosophy or wisdom? Philosophy is cultural. It comes from people. Wisdom is primal. You see it in nature. The Dao De Jing originated in China. Wisdom has no point of origin. If it is wisdom you want, why go to the Chinese for it? Why not go direct to the source?

Semen retention is a purposeful act that violates the natural function of the body. Why is it not illegitimate practice?