Kongming

I'll have to take fault with this. Enlightenment hasn't been hidden from Westerners, neither in the ancient world or the Christian era. Take for example Pythagoras, the pre-Socratics, Plato, and Plotinus. Actually Neoplatonism in its essence close to being the same to both Vedanta, Taoism, Buddhism, etc. Among the Christians, read the works of Pseudo-Dionysius, Meister Eckhart, the Cloud of Unknowing, Nicholas of Cusa, the Philokalia, or the Greek hesychastic tradition. There was also an esoteric Hermetic/alchemic tradition existing in Western soil from the ancient world until the Renaissance and beyond. We also have to differentiate between the modern West and the pre-modern West. The modern West has largely gone astray through Nominalism and Enlightenment era thought which further and further denied or veiled the spiritual and led us to our modern, materialistic, and largely atheistic world-view. However even throughout this time there were enlightened individuals in the Western world and among the Orthodox Christians in Mt. Athos, Russia, etc. While the West has gone astray spiritually and seems to be affecting the whole world, this isn't because of some qualities inherent in Western people or civilization but rather through the process of decline noted in the traditional doctrine of ages. The Hindu Kali-Yuga, Hesiod's Iron Age, the Twilight of the Gods in Norse tradition, Mappo in Buddhism, the decline from the Golden Age in Taoism where humanity all knew Tao, the Fall of Man in Christian tradition, etc. These are all manifestations and understandings of a historical process that is affecting the entire globe. It is interesting to note that a process that took the West some 5 centuries or more to reach the spiritual decline and anti-spiritual attitudes we see today, many Eastern countries had this process occur in a much shorter time. China, for example, went from a traditional civilization (Qing) to a Marxist atheistic society in a matter of decades. This reveals that this process of spiritual decline isn't the unique product of the West, but rather a global trend that has been growing in almost every society. It just seems that the West is the cause because they were the first to reach this terminal point. That is why the ability to find true spiritual masters, wherever they are today, is an extreme blessing and something to be cherished. I also think a dualistic attitude of us vs. them or Asian vs. European is wrong, rather we should see the picture is those who understand metaphysical and spiritual Truths whatever their culture or race vs. those who don't and wish to destroy any remnants of spirituality that are left.

I have a question regarding what the ultimate goal of Taoism is or even if there is a single answer to that question considering the variety of forms Taoism has taken across the expanse of time. I sometimes hear people say that the goal is to be in harmony with the Tao, often with some notion of being in harmony with nature. Still other times i hear the goal is to become an immortal via internal alchemic transformation, or simply longevity and good health. What I want to know is whether or not Taoism has the equivalent to what various Hindu philosophies call jivanmukta, what Buddhists often call enlightenment, or what often was known in Western traditions as gnosis. Does Taoism have a notion of a transcendent liberating experience that is equivalent to the highest knowledge, the fulfillment of the meaning of human life, or an attainment of a deathless state/unity with the Absolute? I always thought that was the case and that was what Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi were getting at with the notion of "attaining the Tao", but I've had people tell me that this is mere "Buddhist interpolation" or a misunderstanding of Taoist soteriology. Of course the way I've read the TTC/Zhuangzi and what translations I could find of other pre-Buddhist Taoist works leads me to believe that is the goal thus precluding any notion of Buddhist interpolation, but perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps a way to clarify the question would be this--is Taoism compatible with the so-called Perennial Philosophy or the Traditionalist School of thought? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School Thanks in advance to any insights anyone can provide.

Thanks for the information and assistance, I suppose the only thing I need to do now is discover a means to get to either China or Taiwan to study Mandarin and thereafter pursue study of Taoism (and the guqin.) I've been looking into scholarships and have run across two that I may potentially be able to qualify for (or hope I can qualify for considering I am about to be 24 and am not enrolled in school.) In the meantime I suppose the best course of action will be to continue self-study of Mandarin and Taoism, incorporating the basic practices/meditations as well as the primary virtues into my life as best as possible.

It is interesting what the Sicilian Baron and esotericist Julius Evola had to say in regards to 真人 and wei-wu-wei:

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but I had another question I was hoping someone here may be able to answer for me. Essentially it is the same as my initial inquiry about being a Taoist monk/renunciate except I was wondering what the situation is in Taiwan. Are there Taoist monks or hermits in Taiwan and would one be more likely to be successful at such an endeavor in Taiwan over Mainland China? I know foreigners have been able to become Buddhist monks in Taiwan, and from what I hear with greater ease than the Mainland, so I was wondering if the situation was similar with Taoism. Thanks in advance to any information anyone can provide.

Yes, egoic consciousness is something to be eliminated or transformed, I agree. I was speaking of super-consciousness or universal consciousness, beyond the limiting factors of a personal consciousness. Does such a concept exist in Daoism? Is the Dao itself a universal cosmic consciousness that is the source of the world of space-time and the myriad of things? Does the Dao have awareness or intelligence?

Yea, I've been learning what I can through a mixture of Pimsleur's Mandarin, looking stuff up on the net, and watching Chinese dramas like Romance of the Three Kingdoms haha. I am currently looking for a way to contact him...I found a Facebook page belonging to him and am writing up a message to send him. I'd really like to find a way to get to China as not only do I want to study Taoism more in depth, I also want to learn the guqin. Beyond that, I have a feeling the only way to become fluent in Mandarin is to live where it is spoken and become immersed.

I know this is an old thread of mine, but I'd like to thank everyone for their replies. Since the time I posted this thread I've grown more attracted to Taoism over Buddhism for certain technical reasons, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the Zhongnan mountains and the hermits there. I learned about the Zhongnan mountains through a documentary on Buddhist hermits there called "Amongst White Clouds", but I was wondering if anyone knew if any Taoist hermits are in these mountains to this day? Since the creator of the documentary I speak of was an American who studied and lived among these hermits, I presume there is some means by which I could accomplish the same task. Does anyone have any further information about these mountains or Taoist hermits/monastics/ascetics in China today and the ability to study under them? Thanks again!

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for: What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

All religions have more in common with each other than with materialism, but really where the Traditionalist school posits the commonality (indeed unity) is in the esoteric or transcendent dimension. If one reads the words of Lao Tzu, Meister Eckhart, Adi Shankara, Ibn Arabi, Huang Po, Plotinus, or Longchenpa, one can see that they are speaking about the same One Truth. This isn't to say that "all religions are exactly the same" or that they have the same (or even similar) doctrinal or philosophical bases, but that they all lead to the same ultimate knowledge or experience. This image shows how they view the situation: Really though, I just added a reference to that school to show what I am talking about. My primary question is what the ultimate goal of Taoism actually is. Attaining the Tao or returning to the Tao yes, but what does that mean? I agree with the Traditionalist perspective and that's what I've always thought Taoism was after, but I've had people telling me otherwise and that's why I asked. To specify further, is there a transcendent goal to Taoism? A goal that is beyond living harmoniously in every day life? What is the true meaning of the Taoist "True Man/Zhenren" and "Immortal"? Thanks for the above link by the way, I am reading now.

Forgive me if this is a question that has been asked before, but I was wondering what the Taoist views on aesthetics, particularly as a spiritual tool, are? This can be applied to natural beauty and any art really, but specifically what I am interested in is what the Taoist view is on sacred art (particularly music) as a tool for inner cultivation or spiritual development is? Now I know historically the Taoists employed the guqin as a means of inner cultivation, but where does other music fall? For example, would Taoists find the listening of mantras, Gregorian chants, Sufi dhikrs/nasheeds/naats, or Indian ragas as a conducive aid to spiritual development? I ask because I know in some traditions, such as Sufism or various forms of Hinduism, music is seen as a valuable aid, whereas in Buddhism (at least for monastics) there is a precept against listening to music (whether that is strictly for secular music or also includes sacred music I am not sure.) So yea, essentially how does Taoism view the aesthetic experience in relation to spirituality and what is the Taoist view on sacred art and music? Valuable aid or something to become detached from and done away with?

Thanks for the information, though in response to Harmonious Emptiness, I wasn't really concerning myself with modern music, though I suppose it could still apply. Specifically I was wondering what Taoist philosophy has to say of sacred music, meditative music, or the use of music as a tool for inner cultivation. Based on what I've read about the guqin and its relation to Taoist aesthetics and use for inner cultivation, they did indeed believe music could be used for that purpose, but really I was hoping to perhaps find a book or more detailed information on the subject.

Thanks for the information, I will keep what you said in mind. It seems I have a lot on my plate to think about and consider; likely any action based on these ideas won't materialize for some time. Right now I am simply trying to become as informed as possible since I actually am serious about these matters. As to the girlfriend option, I don't think that would jive very well with my ambitions to become a monk haha.

I was speaking only in reference to teaching English, not becoming a monk. Based on what has been said to me both on this forum and others, I have my doubts about what China can offer me today in terms of spirituality, especially in regards to Taoism. Perhaps Chan Buddhism is worth a look, but who knows. I suppose I will only ever know for myself if I go there. I suppose I didn't really see the issue as a lie since in practice this is how it is done, and rather than limit myself for my lack of a degree or spend 10s of thousands of dollars and years of my time obtaining a piece of paper solely for this purpose, it seemed simply a realistic choice on my part. On a separate note, what is the situation with Tibetan Buddhism within China? I know due to recent history the political situation is probably tense, and I hear most people say forget about going to Tibet proper (hence why I brought up Dharamsala) but what about Tibetan minorities in Sichuan? Do any Han Chinese practice Vajrayana?

I hear officially you need a degree to obtain a visa, but in practice there are many individuals teaching there without a degree. I imagine if one were to receive the CELTA certification in China, it would be easy to go from there. I suppose you could say that I am interested in too many traditions (really I am interested on an intellectual level in all sacred traditions), but really they could be lumped (as I did earlier) as Zen, Tantric Buddhism, and Taoism. I listed them all for the sake of discussion, at this point and based upon what I've been learning this past week or so, I'd say I am most interested in Tibetan Buddhism and Shingon in terms of actual practice. As you say, overseas and in terms of the wealth of information available, it seems Tibetan Buddhism is likely the obvious choice. Though I will continue to study and listen to my intuition. Thanks again!

1. Yes, as white as they come (stereotypical Anglo-Saxon) 2. Nope 3. Plan on getting a CELTA as soon as I can save enough money --- @Walker. Thank you so much for your informative reply, it seems you've really covered most of what I was wondering about. I don't speak Mandarin aside from some basic survival level stuff, though of course I'd be willing to learn and confident in my ability to do so if the motivation is strong enough. I've worried about spiritual charlatans as I know they are out there, but I am fairly good at intuitively reading people so I hope that would help me in this regard. Overall it sounds like finding an authentic Taoist spiritual environment is, much as I expected, not so easy and fraught with various complications. Honestly from what has been said it sounds the situation is quite bleak, especially for a foreigner like me who would have to do so much, including learning a whole language, just to have a (slim?) chance at being initiated into anything remotely authentic. That being the case, I realize this is a Taoist forum, but would anybody have anything to say in regards to either Tibetan Buddhism or Shingon Buddhism? I know India has a 10 year visa available for Americans, so it could be quite possible to go to Dharamsala or elsewhere in India to study authentic Vajryana. Japan I imagine would be the most difficult to obtain a visa, especially since you need a degree to teach English in Japan (as far as I am aware.) Of all my options--Taoism, Chan Buddhism, Korean Seon, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Zen, Shingon Buddhism--which has the most potential for actual growth and could be practical for a white Westerner to be accepted in? To be honest, I am most interested in Tantric Buddhism, but I am not so sure I'd want to live in India (unless I am mistaken about the unpleasant nature of doing so.) I don't want to sound like the picky Westerner, truly I am quite Stoic and not afraid of lowering my current living conditions, but again I've heard plenty of horror stories about India. As to Shingon, well as I said Japan doesn't seem like the easiest place to go and I am not sure how accepting of Westerners they are. Hopefully in time, being guided by intuition and further study, and with a bit of luck I will discover where I belong and become immersed in some serious sadhana. Any further input will be appreciated, and thanks again everyone.

Thanks for the information everyone, I will certainly take to heart what has been said. I've worried that the spiritual situation in China might not be that great in lieu of the trends of the 20th century. It seems much of the entire modern world is in a sort of spiritual decline or crisis where materialism is becoming the predominate paradigm and spirituality, especially of the higher order of esotericism and metaphysics, seems to be in decline. As of right now, I basically have 4 primary spiritual traditions that I am interested in that can be lumped into 2 basic groups. Group 1 is Zen/Chan and Taoism, which I see in most ways to be compatible. I've long had an interest in Chinese culture and have had desires to teach English abroad, particularly in China. I figured I would use the visa from teaching English as a first step into China and go from there, seeing what I could find. I do like the idea of learning Mandarin compared to the language related to the other traditions (more in a second) and I also admit I have a particular love of the guqin which I'd like to learn, so that is yet another benefit to going to China for my interests. The other group is Tantra, both Buddhist (be it Tibetan Buddhism or Shingon) and Hindu (Kashmir Saivist Tradition.) Now it may seem that these traditions are all quite different, but as I said I adhere to the Traditionalist school of thought and believe that each of these traditions are capable of imparting to their devoted followers the supreme realization or enlightenment. Within this second group, the main cons I see are that I'd have to go to India to study and though I've never been to India, I've heard plenty of horror stories in relation to the amount of poverty, filth, spiritual con artists, and frankly danger (malaria, rabid animals, etc.) Now one can't live one's life through the eyes of fear, but I still take that into consideration. Also learning Tibetan seems more difficult than Mandarin and also much more limited in application since really it can only be used for speaking with Tibetans and for Buddhism. Finally there is the option of Shingon, but I know Japan also has gone through heavy secularization and seems not so easy for Westerners to move to. That is the gist of my situation and dilemma. For now I spend my time studying all I can and doing various practices in an attempt to discern a path or tradition to devote myself to entirely, but there is a lot to consider as I just explained. If anyone has any further remarks, either on the state of Taoism or these other traditions, feel free to share. I appreciate the dialogue.

Yea, this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. My inner calling is that of the yogi/ascetic/monk, thus I want to leave behind the world of money and finances to concentrate solely on cultivation and learning. I don't want to be the Western tourist seen as a source of money, I just want to incorporate the Tao into my life and learn from a master. It doesn't seem very aligned with spiritual teachings for a teacher to work for monetary profit (though I can fully understand why Chinese would want this to be the case in order to contribute to the economy.) Is this sort of life impossible for a Taoist today? Would I be better off looking toward Chan Buddhism in such a case?