Kongming

This is something I've been contemplating myself lately. It appears that, as you say, Daoists associated with neidan and Quanzhen wish to create some sort of subtle body that will survive death, and it seems highly individualized. This does seem quite a bit different than Chan's intuiting of our primordial original nature or "Pure Mind", Buddha Nature, the Absolute, etc. Then again, I am still not sure if the neidan ideals are different or not. They claim an association with Chan for starters. Second, you often hear them speak of our "primordial nature" or "original nature" much in the same manner. Figures like Liu Yiming and others even go so far as to quote Bodhidharma in a manner by saying "xin (mind, heart-mind, etc.) is the Dao and the Dao is the xin." Then there's the whole famous idea of transmuting jing to qi to shen and then to emptiness--the final stage being described as emptiness sounds quite a bit different than some highly individualized or egoic subtle body. Thomas Cleary's book Vitality, Energy, and Spirit contains this excerpt from a text attributed to Lu Dongbin: "Whenever I see those whom the vulgar call devotees of the Tao, I find that all of them seek to be taken in by spirits and immortals, or they seek lasting life and preservation of wealth by the practice of material alchemy or sexual yoga. When it comes to the great Tao of true eternity, pure and open, tranquil and dispassionate, there are few who are interested in it." Perhaps someone with more knowledge of neidan and its goals can elucidate these points and possible differences further.

With all that said, is it the case that Daoism (specifically neidan/Quanzhen but also in general) aims for the same end state or goal as Buddhism (namely Chan, but also in general) does in your opinion? In other words, when reading Chan masters like Huineng, Huangbo, Linji, or texts like the Xinxin Ming and Song of Enlightenment, how much of this material is applicable to Daoism as well?

Is it really the case that most Daoist masters and lineages perished under Mao? I ask because I am genuinely interested in Quanzhen Dao (and related currents) and am currently learning Mandarin with hopes to find some masters and possibly seek out ordination someday. If that doesn't work out, I was hoping to look into some of the Shingon re-transmissions into the Chinese speaking world and/or whatever Chinese tantrayana (Tangmi, etc.) survived.

Well, I certainly have enjoyed the answers and discussion so far, no matter how much it has diverged from the original question. That said, it seems to me most of the answers have been humble, conciliatory, kind, or something along the lines of "Daoism just fits for me" or "I found Daoism first" or "Don't worry about paths or traditions, but truth." That's fine, but does anyone have an answer with a little more bite or conviction for their chosen path? Again, I am not interested in putting down either tradition as I have a great fondness for both, but it would be interesting to hear an answer which states why they think Daoism is the supreme path, or how they believe Daoism or neidan is the most advanced, or why Daoism beats out Buddhism in their opinion. One thing I've seen Daoists say is that they cultivate both inner nature/xing (性) and life-destiny/ming (命), i.e. Daoists integrate health practices, dietetics, qi cultivation, neigong, etc. along with meditation and inner observation, whereas the Buddhists (typically) neglect the former. In conjunction with this I've heard Daoists say, to repeat what I mentioned earlier, that Buddhists can only project a yin soul. To quote from Stephen Eskildsen's "The Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Daoist Masters": Thoughts on polemics like these?

One shouldn't underestimate Christianity entirely in this regard. The Orthodox practice of hesychasm, which is quite similar to japa or mantra practice, as well as the apophatic contemplation described by figures like Pseudo-Dionysius or in the medieval "Cloud of Unknowing", as well as the plethora of material within the Philokalia or in Scupoli's Spiritual Combat are all various techniques and methodologies for cooling the passions, clearing the mind, and entering higher states of contemplation.

Yea, but to be fair all the so-called sun worshipers also understood the sun symbolically: its illuminating and life giving properties and its golden glory were taken to the visible symbol of the formless Supreme Sun beyond space-time, namely the Absolute, going by various names (Brahman, the One of Neoplatonism, the Godhead, etc.) Furthermore, Daoists speak of golden light, golden courts, golden flowers, golden immortals (or rather golden bodies), and of course gold was associated with yang like the sun. The internal alchemists wished to create a pure yang spirit, also referred to as the golden body mentioned earlier. Certain Daoists, such as the Shangqing sect, often used various visualizations of fire engulfing their entire bodies and the world, visualized entering the sun, etc. So we can't really say the Daoists different from the other spiritual traditions you mentioned in this regard.

Interesting replies so far. Many have commented on how they feel Daoism is less religious than Buddhism, and therefore I assume are "philosophical Daoists" rather than affiliated with any particular lineage or school (such as Zhengyi or Quanzhen.) For those Daoists here who happen to associate with Quanzhen, Zhengyi, the Wuliupai, or other forms of what is called religious Daoism, or for those who practice neidan, what are your thoughts on the matter? Now, I think both traditions are worthy of respect, but is interesting how historically they both influenced and benefited from each other, but also debated with each other and critiqued each other. There are many instances of Daoists converting to Buddhism or Buddhists converting to Daoism as well. What were the particular traits that lead to these conversions? For example, among the neidan practitioners, I've heard the claim that Buddhists only can project "yin souls" and can only become ghosts, or if not that specifically something to the effect that neidan immortality practices are beyond Buddhist liberation. Buddhists on the other hand often claim that Daoists don't actually transcend samsara but only reach the higher states of samsara, namely the celestial/heavenly/godly modes of being, and therefore are ultimately not liberated. Perhaps it is the case that both are actually discussing the same thing but misunderstanding each other, or perhaps these critiques were solely of a political nature (say like receiving imperial patronage or donations.) Nonetheless, perhaps these areas should be explored. Furthermore, I agree that perhaps finding a true master is most important and that Truth is ultimate non-sectarian and transcends particular religious traditions.

Does anyone know to what extent Shangqing/Maoshan/Highest Clarity Daoism has survived into the modern world? From what I understand based off reading the Wiki article, it integrated under the general Zhengyi Alliance. Does this mean that modern Zhengyi preserves transmissions, practices, doctrines, rituals, or other aspects of Shangqing Daoism? Furthermore, for those knowledgeable of the topic, are there any books in particular that you recommend for learning more? I just began reading Isabelle Robinet's "Taoist Meditation: The Maoshan Tradition of Great Purity" which seems to be a standard study available in English. Anything else worth checking out? Thanks.

To what extent are practices like Taijiquan, Qigong, and Zhan Zhuang related toward purely spiritual or "esoteric goals", i.e. sagehood, spiritual awakening, Buddhahood, immortality, etc.? (or what ever other name you may wish to use.) Do these practices have a conscious aim that is of a higher nature? While I doubt they can replace practices like seated meditation, neidan, mantra practice, or other practices which are more explicitly spiritual in their aim, can and do the these practices act in cohesion with the latter toward that ultimate end? I ask because often when reading about qigong, neigong, internal martial arts, and so on, one hears of the energetic and health benefits, which is great since one needs health in order to accomplish spiritual goals, but are there direct spiritual benefits to these practices as well? If such is the case, which I suspect it is at least to some degree, are there any good books on the topic written from that perspective that you are aware of? Thanks.

Thanks for the replies everyone. Spotless said: Can you expand on this further and why you believe this is so? Beyond that, is anyone aware of any books, articles, or other material which would expound on the spiritual benefits of such practices? Finally, of the variety of practices that fall under the Daoyin/Qigong/Neijia fold, which would be best for a beginner that has the most profound energetic (qi cultivating, qimai clearing, etc.) and spiritual benefits?

Hello, I rarely drop by these parts (or anywhere else on the internet for that matter) but have had a question that has been nagging me which I thought some of the figures on this forum may be able to assist with. As hinted at in the title of the thread, I can't seem to find my particular path or know whether this is even necessary. I have a strong attraction to Daoism (in general really but I like the early Lao-Zhuang material and Quanzhen the most, with a lesser interest in Shangqing) and Chan Buddhism on the one hand, but also some interest in the East Asian esoteric Buddhist traditions (as exhibited by Japanese mikkyo or Shingon, but also where these elements exist in the Chinese sphere.) My question is, how does one determine which of these three one should follow? Is it possible to follow all three, or in other words could one call oneself a "Buddho-Daoist"? Do you think the three strains mentioned are compatible with each other? Do you know of any famous masters or schools which have drawn from them or identified with both traditions? If it is better to follow just one path, is there any crucial elements from either tradition that differentiates them so as to be able to find which one is right? Thanks in advance for any insight on these matters.

So what are the best tips you are aware of for maintaining celibacy as per its use in internal alchemy? What are some essential "do's" and "don't" and how can one, particularly a young adult man, be successful in this endeavor? Have any of you personally attempted the process of seminal retention or just general celibacy and if so what were your own experiences or insights? Aware of any good reading material on the topic? Do share anything.

Thanks for the replies everyone, I guess I was concerned that following two paths or traditions might lead to confusion rather than clarity, or prove a hindrance rather than a benefit. Furthermore, while I understood the mutual influence that Daoism and Buddhism had on each other in China, the fact that there was polemics between the two throughout their history also concerned me. I've also heard the analogy before of a particular spiritual tradition being a path up the mountaintop, but that one must follow a path rather than attempting to follow multiple paths. That said, it seems to me much of what has been said in this thread is true. Buddhism and Daoism are quite similar to each other in most regards, and hence integrating practices from both, like Nan Huaijin has done in modern times for example, is quite possible. I suppose what may be most important is finding a good master.

Hey, thanks for the replies everyone. My only concern was that I don't want to be too "New Age", such as claiming to be a Buddhist-Taoist-Hermetic-Druid or something, but rather follow an authentic path at some point in the future. As of now I am not associated with any particular school or lineage, but I do some basic practices on my own. In short, I could see just being a "Daoist", especially in Quanzhen which as far as I understand it integrates a lot of Chan. My relation to Buddhism outside of Chan is my love of the Avatamsaka Sutra as translated by Cleary, and again some of the esoteric practices, namely mantra. I do a mantra practice (one of the ones not requiring initiation) and plan on eventually doing the complete sadhana with mudra, visualization, etc and this is a practice I don't want to give up on. So while it is easy to be a Daoist and study/appreciate Chan or vice versa, I was more worried about extraneous practices. Is it appropriate for a Daoist (say part of a lineage or school like Quanzhen) to recite a Buddhist mantra and has anyone seen anything of this sort done? As to the person who mentioned Shugendo, I am also interested in this and would love to practice some day, but my only worry would be language barriers. Currently I am learning Mandarin rather than Japanese, so I figured I'd be limited in that regard.

Does Taoism have the same concept of supernormal powers as Hinduism and Buddhism, i.e. siddhis? If so what sort of supernormal powers were they? I recall while reading in Liezi tales of people who couldn't be burnt by fire, ride the wind, or preform seemingly frightening or impossible acts with the ease of spontaneous naturalness. Are these intended to be metaphorical or are they literal? Were supernormal powers something pursued in the Taoist tradition, something seen as a distraction toward a higher goal, or absent entirely?

I don't post as often as I should here, but in the past I expressed interest in the idea of becoming a monk in China. At the time I understood less than I should, but since then I've been exploring Taoism further. Though I will admit I got a bit skeptical about my chances as a Westerner of successfully finding my way into a serious Taoist setting in Asia where I could be taught by a real master, not only from the level of practicality but also because of what various Chinese individuals I've spoken to say about contemporary Taoism. Many of them have said that Taoism today is largely a tourist money generator and that the Cultural Revolution wrecked much of Taoism. While it may be the case that China has suffered spiritually from the effects of Marxism and now contemporary consumerism, I doubt that among over 1 billion people there isn't a real Taoist master to be found. While not featuring Taoists, the film "Amongst White Clouds" still provides huge inspiration to me, and recently I discovered a French woman who became a Taoist nun in China: http://www.bjreview.com.cn/nation/txt/2007-05/15/content_63949.htm There's some videos on youtube about her as well. This renewed my hope that there may be a chance for me to successfully become involved as a Quanzhen monk somewhere in China (or Taiwan), though I am also interested in the possible existence of any Shangqing/Maoshan masters that be out there. My questions are a bit similar to what I've asked before on this forum, but perhaps there may be some new or further insights on the matter. They are as follows: 1. What are thoughts of the people here on the attainability of this goal? Would it be that serious Taoism still is out there, or are the Chinese skeptics I've spoken to right in saying that it is largely a dead or dying tradition? 2. What are the main practices of Taoists in Asia today? While I have a moderate interest in Qigong, Taichi, Wudang martial arts, Taoist ritual, etc., what I am primarily interested in is apophatic mediation (zuowang), internal alchemy (neidan), Taoist esotericism, and spiritual awakening in a Taoist context. In other words, practices like those of the early Quanzhen monks, those in Charle's Luk's "Taoist Yoga", and meditation like that in the Secret of the Golden Flower. Are those practices still prevalent today and are living masters from real lineages who teach these practices still to be found? Thanks in advance for any help, I appreciate any advice or insight anyone may have to offer on these issues.

I am not after powers, I wast just curious as to what Taoism's view and history of such powers are. It is interesting that certain traditions, such as forms of Buddhism and Hinduism, emphasize that siddhis are like signposts to show one has made progress on the path toward enlightenment, but not the goal themselves. It just made me wonder what other traditions views of this may be. Interestingly enough, it seems the Zen literature I've read doesn't touch upon siddhis or powers much either. I wonder if such concepts are entirely alien to Zen or if they too have siddhis, especially since original Buddhism spoke of them.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. I read Neiye which I enjoyed greatly and am onto reading some of those linked in the thread. Also I am not sure how useful this text is compared to others since it is hagiographical, but I found this book: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1794293.To_Live_as_Long_as_Heaven_and_Earth Here is a PDF link for anyone interested: http://bookos.org/book/1140347/60d161

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the situation with Taoist monasticism or asceticism in modern mainland China is like today? The reason I inquire is because for quite some time I've had the stirrings of a renunciate, and though I adhere to the so-called Traditionalist school of thought (Rene Guenon, Coomaraswamy, Frithjof Schuon, etc.) I feel most attracted to Eastern traditions. Within the Eastern traditions, I feel most attracted to Zen and Taoism, and the Tao Te Ching is my bible so to speak. Essentially I am chasing enlightenment and the normal goals of modern society such as financial success, rearing a family, or the pursuit of pleasure is of little interest to me. So that being the case, I was wondering how alive Taoism is in China today and if it is possible for white Westerners to study Taoism or become a Taoist monk? I am not interested in the folk religion so much as I am philosophical Taoism, internal alchemy, qigong, and internal martial arts. Are Westerners ever initiated into such teachings and do masters of such teachings still exist in mainland China today? I wonder because I know China has gone through Maoism, secularization, and an anti-spiritual period, so I am curious as to how alive or efficacious the tradition is today. Also, I am aware that this idea may seem fantastical, so please spare any practical advice like "just study where you are" or "you don't need to become a monk" etc. I have already taken these things into account, and while I cannot say that I am 100% certain I am going to become a Taoist monk in China, that is what I am primarily interested in learning more about from anyone who knows more about this subject. I appreciate any input and thanks ahead of time.

Is Taoism as open to members of non-Chinese and non-East Asian races as, say, Christianity or Buddhism? Does Taoism have the ability to have a universal appeal? Are there any prejudices against non-Chinese who are interested in Taoism, particularly in Chinese countries or communities? For example, do Westerners who have interest in Taoism find doors closed to them based upon their race? Say for example if a Westerner desired to join a Quanzhen monastic community, would there be any hesitation or desire to keep foreigners out by the Chinese? Related to these questions is the folk religion aspect of Taoism. From what I understand, the separation between "religious" and "philosophical" Taoism is misrepresentation of the reality of Taoism as it is actually practiced. So for a Westerner who wishes to be a Taoist, would he have to venerate Guan Yu for example? Do all Chinese Taoists venerate Guan Yu or other such cultural heroes/gods or are there Chinese Taoists that simply focus on cultivation, meditation, and living in accordance with Taoist philosophy and virtues? I ask because I wonder how "accepted" Westerners (assuming they become fluent in Mandarin) are by the Chinese Taoists. I also wonder because for me personally, I'd like to avoid the sort of New Age flavored "Neo-Taoism" and discover what authentic Taoism is, but I am not sure such a spiritual world is even open to non-Chinese (or non-East Asians.) I especially wouldn't like to impose on a community that doesn't want me or interfere with their harmony with my presence as I sincerely respect their spiritual quest. Thanks for any information anyone can provide on these topics.

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I didn't actually go to China or any Taoist temples, find doors closed to me, and then create a thread complaining about racial prejudice. I was merely asking if such a scenario were possible based upon things I've heard others say and the fact that for most of its history Taoism was an ethnic religion. Nothing I've said has had anything to do with my personal experiences, my ambitions, what I am willing to do nor not do, and so forth.

As I hinted to previously, I don't think there is an West vs East on a spiritual or philosophical level traditionally/historically. The shift really became a modernist vs traditionalist view, the former denying the importance of the spiritual and the latter having the spiritual as its central axis or heart. The West gradually, over the course of many centuries, came to embody the modernist view in the majority, but that doesn't mean that throughout that process and into today there weren't Westerners opposed to modernism and trying to uphold metaphysical truth. Now the East is also largely adopting modern ways on a more complete level, which they call "Westernization" but should more aptly be called modernization/secularization. As I also said, the quickness with which the East has foregone their previous spiritual focus and adopted the materialistic, modern Western views betrays a process of degeneration free of any Western influence occurring among themselves. This is the doctrine of ages I spoke of previously. Look into the spirituality and philosophies of the pre-modern West and the East, and the differences are far less apparent. Especially on the transcendent level, they were all searching for enlightenment or a personal ontological transformation into a divine or sacred state. The reason the differences are less apparent is because there is in truth one Primordial Tradition, one perennial Truth that is the birthright and ultimate goal of all mankind regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, or culture.

I have read some of Blofeld's works, my particular favorite being the Zen Teachings of Huang Po. Whether every foreigner has had the same experience as Blofeld or whether prevailing sentiments have changed since his time and our own is open to discussion, which in essence was the point of my thread. I know I have heard personally of other religious or cultural groups complaining of Westerners being interested in or participating in their traditions, exclaiming it as a form of "cultural appropriation" or some new found means of colonial racism and oppression in the popular reoccurring theme of the modern world of "white Western Christian man= evil, bad guy of history." I'd imagine (and hope) that Taoists or Buddhists or others who seek a supra-individual Truth that transcends race, ethnicity, and culture would be less likely to fall prey to such thinking and wasn't implying that it was otherwise by creating this thread. I am searching for what the Taoists call Tao and find myself in agreement with most Taoist points of view, with the Tao Te Ching being among if not my very favorite sacred text, and yet I consider Taoism as a potential vehicle or path toward the One Truth, not the only one. I also have considered in the past and still consider to this day other traditions such as Buddhism, Vedanta, Kashmir Shaivism, Dzogchen, Eastern Orthodox Christianity, and Sufism. As to being a Westerner, yes, that is what I am. I personally acknowledge the existence of race and culture and don't think they are entirely meaningless or something of no value as much of contemporary society does. With that said, I don't feel myself superior, inferior, or equal to anyone, either collectively on a racial/cultural level or individually. I don't qualify or compare myself to others.

Western Civilization means many different things. In the ancient Classic Western world, there was no uniform philosophical system of thought that was predominate. The Greek mystery religions, Platonism, Neoplatonism, ancient alchemy, and so forth all offered the possibility of the One Knowledge that has been available in every true sacred tradition. What the Buddhists call enlightenment, the Taoists understand as knowing the Tao, the Hindus call moksha or self-realization, etc. was also available to the ancient Western world. Traditional Christianity (Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy), which later came to be associated with Western civilization, also offered this possibility through divinization/deification/theosis/Beatific vision. Again, give Meister Eckhart, Pseudo Dionysius, or the Cloud of Unknowing a read and I think you'll find the similarities between East and West striking. The Cloud of Unknowing is almost a "Zen" text. Western civilization went astray with the rise of humanism, nominalism, and Enlightenment era thought. This process begins in the later Middle Ages and the Renaissance, but doesn't really speed up to how we understand it now until the late 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. It was during this time that spirituality and pure metaphysics were largely given up in favor of what the West is famously known for, ie rationalism, the exaltation of natural science divorced from a sacred science, and later anti-spiritualism and even atheism. There is no denying that the East kept their traditions intact longer, but it is a shame that today it seems the East as a whole is moving away from spirituality and conforming with the times. Kali-Yuga.

Old Testament Judaic religion and the New Testament/the way Christianity was actually practiced were far different. The chosen people of God according to traditional Christian theology isn't a ethnic group of people (the Jews covenant with God being broken with the incarnation and their subsequent rejection and crucifixion of Christ), but rather the mystical body of Christ on Earth, ie the Church and the Christian community, which was open to anyone. What you are describing is to be applied more to, again, Old Testament Judaic religion and its later developments in Rabbinical Judaism or Talmudism, where the Jews are still considered the chosen people of God. Either way, I don't think we should turn this into a debate about Christianity vs. Taoism. I just asked the question because, historically, Taoism predominately is obviously associated with the Chinese people and finds influences in the Sinosphere/East Asian world, thereby being bound up with a particular ethnic or racial group for most of its history. I merely contrasted this with Christianity and Buddhism which historically has been more ethnically diverse and universal. I wasn't attempting to imply that Taoism can't be universal, but was rather trying to see what the opinions of the Chinese were toward non-Chinese, non-East Asian Taoists.