Kongming

That is true enough, the Buddha didn't want people to become attached to views or be caught in speculation but rather to directly awaken for themselves. That said it seems the principle form of self that is criticized in the texts is the contingent, skandhic falsehood that we mistakenly call our self whereas a more properly "Atman" type self is free of all qualities or possession, thus having no "selfhood" in the more normative dualistic sense. This famous verse seems to be discussing a counterpart to the impermanent, conditioned, dukkha, non-self skandhas: Nan Huaijin briefly mentions the non-self issue in his "Working Toward Enlightenment": Furthermore Miri Albahari in an article about self vs non-self in the Pali makes an interesting point: Just some food for thought. Of course this is just dealing with Pali/Theravada. As mentioned earlier, in Mahayana, especially in Tathagatagarbha, Tathagatagarbha-Yogacara, and in East Asian Esoteric Buddhism many sutras, texts, and masters describe the four gunaparamita of the Dharmakaya/Tathagatagarbha as nitya (eternal), sukha (bliss), subha (purity), and atma (Self.)

From what I understand it is vijnana or consciousness, one of the aggregates, which transmigrates as a result of causes and conditions, namely karma which as CT mentioned is due to ignorance. Vijnana is not self as per the Buddha's teachings on the skandhas. The whole self vs. non-self issue in Buddhism is a rather confused one, sometimes erupting into debates. You have scholars who have studied the Nikayas and noticed that anatta or non-self is always used as an adjective and applied to the skandhas, which are also anicca or impermanent and dukkha or agitation, suffering, etc. The Buddha never states "there is no Atman/Self" in the earliest material and many have argued for an assumed Self (which is not the person but rather the animative principle) in the Pali. With Mahayana it is a bit different because in various sutras in the Tathagatagarbha category, especially the Nirvana Sutra and the Angulimaliya Sutra and in shastras such as the Ratnagotravibhaga, the Buddha speaks of a Self. Chan Buddhism, Kukai/Shingon, and Dolpopa/Shentongpas also affirm the reality of a Self. Lama Shenpen Hookham is a modern teacher who discusses these teachings.. Though as per your original question, the Self is not that which transmigrates since such a Self is deemed timeless and thus changeless.

Thanks for the honesty. Often people want to avoid saying one tradition is superior to the other out of a conciliatory attitude, so it's refreshing to hear someone speak their mind. I am unaware of how neidan functions on the ground so to speak since I don't live in China and have no resources near me, so my knowledge is limited to books and other peoples words. I can't speak on whether most of it is a matter of making money or not, but then I've heard people in the West complain about the money making aspects of Buddhist empowerments, Dharma talks, retreats, etc. as well. That said, from what I understand neidan developed in the later Tang but has roots in various earlier material, some going back as far as the Wu shamans, others to Lao-Zhuang Daoism or the Fangshi of the Han Dynasty, others to Shangqing material, and some to the interaction of tantric Buddhism and Daoism in the Tang. The cryptic nature of the texts is due to it being an esoteric tradition, much in the same way esoteric Buddhists have the "Twilight Language." Quanzhen has ethical guidelines (five hindrances, etc.) and mind training (riyong 日用 or daily use, daily sustenance, etc. and xinzhai 心齋 or mind fasting, etc.) for becoming a better person and training ones mind. As to the goal, the goal apparently is to rise through the levels of being by converting jing to qi to shen to emptiness and thus 的道成仙 dedao chengxian or "obtain the Dao, become an immortal." Attaining the Dao, thereby returning to origins or the Absolute and entering the timeless state, namely immortality. Its goal here is therefore comparable to Western alchemy, Kalachakra tantra, or perhaps various yogic traditions of India, like the Naths, etc. The idea of an immortal spiritual body of qi is also quite reminiscent of the Buddhist "manomaya kaya." Again, whether any of this exists on the ground today is not for me to say.

Well my point wasn't directed at Dzogchen masters who I imagine are indeed humble people but rather the claim inherent in Dzogchen specifically or Vajrayana more generally, namely that Buddhism is superior to all non-Buddhist religions, that Mahayana is superior to Hinayana, that Vajrayana is superior to Sutrayana Mahayana, and that Dzogchen is the apex of Vajrayana. Given that claim to potency, Vajrayana and Dzogchen practitioners should be leagues beyond, say, Daoists or Hindus or even Zennists, etc. Is this the reality? As to guru yoga, I am not comfortable with the idea of the samaya vows that pledge obedience to what could be, for all I know, an unenlightened man or even one with ill intentions, and the idea of "Vajra hell", namely the metaphor of the snake in the tube wherein breaking samaya, switching traditions, etc. guarantees Avici hell. On the whole I value much of what I've encountered reading about Tibetan Buddhism and the words of various masters, but I suppose on the whole the issue isn't so much flaws I see with the tradition as much as a lack of personal affinity. Though it is interesting, I wonder where neidan practices would fall in the Tibetan tantric grading system. For example, much of Shingon/East Asian Esoteric Buddhism is classified as kriya, carya, and yoga tantra. Perhaps neidan style practices are Daoist equivalent of anuttarayoga?

I will say it often does seem that way but I remain optimistic that there remain some bearers of the torch of transcendent wisdom out there in the world. In your view then, what are the best options for a spiritual seeker in our times? If we are on our own, aside from the basic elements of obtaining self-mastery, ethical purification, trying to quiet the mind, etc. what should one be doing?

Who is? Are you saying both methodologies are flawed and that there is a superior way or are you saying we are in advanced state of the Kali Yuga/Dharma Ending Age and there are no masters left?

Which is that, neidan? A reference to horns of an animal vs hairs saying? Perhaps in a way such a view is a bit more realistic than some of the more triumphalist and fantastic claims of Buddhist schools (like Dzogchen) which claim the practices are so much more powerful and advanced than anything else out there, which in turn makes you wonder why more of the practitioners aren't Mahasiddhas. Though this brings up another point in relation to the two paths in question: it is a fact that religious or cultivation traditions can degenerate or decline in time, becoming confused and having less awakened men to show the way, etc. Who's producing more xian/immortals and Buddhas these days, the tantrikas or the Daoist internal alchemists? Indeed, though Tibetan Vajrayana is a bit of a different animal than what I was speaking of initially, which is more of the esoteric practices that exist in Chinese, Korean, and especially Japanese Buddhist traditions (Shingon, Tendai, Shugendo, etc.) I see the value and power in much of the Tibetan material, but personally I am put off by guru yoga, the sexual aspects which I see as a potential for abuse, the tulku system, and I also find Tibetan culture more foreign feeling to me than East Asian. In other words, while I don't discount the value in Tibetan Buddhism and acknowledge that a true seeker should look anywhere, as a personal equation on the whole I can't see myself becoming a Tibetan Buddhist or following a Tibetan Buddhist path.

Traditionally have the various Celestial Buddhas and Bodhisattvas (such as Vairocana, Avalokitesvara, Manjushri, etc.) and other beings such as Vidyarajas and Dharmapalas been understood as objective beings? Obviously in Buddhism you hear of everything being either of One Mind or being Pure Mind or perhaps all being empty, but do these various beings in the Buddhist pantheon have some form of objective existence as well? In other words, how and do these beings assist devotees on the path enlightenment or perhaps intercede to rescue beings in danger? Historically from my understanding they were certainly prayed to. What does prayer to these beings do in the context of Buddhist cultivation or general religiosity? I am not too familiar with the topic, but how does all of this relate to the notion of "other power" one often hears about in Japanese Buddhism? How do these beings figure in relation to tantric/esoteric (whether Shingon/East Asian mikkyo or Himalayan/Tibetan Buddhism)? In short, please discuss any information or viewpoints on the topic of the celestial Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.

I came across this explanation of things in John Blofeld's book on Guanyin. These are the words of some Chinese Buddhist he was talking with on the topic (I could only take a screenshot of the text couldn't copy so here it is as an image): Is this an accurate way of viewing the matter? I've also heard that during mantra practice, particularly that related to a specific Buddha or Bodhisattva, that one of the aims besides increasing concentration is to make a connection with an enlightened being. Does this thus mean they have some sort of objective existence? Personally I don't care for Madhyamika and am more interested in Yogacara, Tathagatagarhbha, East Asian systems (Tiantai, Huayan, Chan, etc.) and East Asian esoteric views on this topic. Anyone have any insights in this regard?

I've read and heard various references to zhan zhuang having a relationship to neidan or there possibly being a form of zhan zhuang specifically intended for neidan but can't seem to find out much about if such a relationship truly exists or not. In short, what is the relationship if any of zhan zhuang to neidan? Is there really a specific neidan oriented zhan zhuang practice? More broadly, is there a relationship between neidan and the spiritual goals of Daoist cultivation (whether neidan or not)? Anywhere I can learn more about these topics? Thanks.

Three closely related questions on Western and Eastern traditions I've been pondering, perhaps some here could their perspectives: --Are the goals of the Western esoteric or mystery traditions (in particular alchemy, Hermeticism, esoteric Christianity, Kabbalah, etc.) the same in your opinion as that of Buddhism, Daoism, or Hinduism? In particular is there a Western equivalent of neidan or tantra? Do the Western mystery traditions seek to produce an equivalent of the Daoist "true man" or a Buddha or a jivanmukta/jnani? --Are the Western traditions inferior, equal, or superior to the Eastern traditions in this regard? Based on Western interest in Eastern traditions over the course of the past century or more and that many Western esoteric figures either trained in or were influenced by the East I doubt many would claim superiority, though I could be wrong. That said, are the doctrines, practices, and methods of the West inferior to that of the East? --Are the Western esoteric traditions in a state of lower vitality than the Eastern ones? While it seems to me that most religious and esoteric traditions, whether East or West, have experienced a qualitative decline in modernity, I wonder as to whether the West may have been hit harder in this regard. Are there true Western masters left or valid initiatory chains (an equivalent to Dharma transmission, etc) left? Any input on any of these topics are welcome, or really any information, advice, or experience regarding the Western traditions in relation to the Eastern ones.

Anyone here involved with or know much about Martinism? I've always found the topic interesting but have yet to study anything in depth or read any of the works of the founders. Based on some of the readings I've done on the basic doctrines, especially around ideas of the Fall and reintegration, it sounds quite similar to and perhaps a Christian version of what one might find in Daoist alchemy or otherwise, i.e. restoration of the primordial state. For those with a knowledge of the topic, is this accurate? Does Martinism have a relation with alchemy, Western or otherwise? Finally, does anyone know any good literature on the topic? Any particular work recommended to start with?

There have been many examples of groups throughout history who were at once ascetics, mystics, monks, priests, sages, and occultists and also warriors or military men: the Knights Templar, Shaolin monks, the Sohei and Yamabushi, the original Naga Sadhus, various Sufi warriors, and figures like Alexander Peresvet. Daoism itself is often associated with martial arts and martial figures, like Zhang Sanfeng for example. My question is, given the historic precedent, how compatible do you think the two paths are? By being a warrior one might not necessarily be one actively engaged in combat but rather who cultivates martial arts and a warrior mindset. Do the two mindsets and paths complement each other? Also, can dedication to both potentially result in the highest spiritual aims or does the latter admit no other concerns or pursuits? In other words, could one be on the path of neidan or Buddhahood or moksha while also concerning oneself with maintaining one's physical fighting capability and practicing martial arts? Finally, is anyone aware of any good tomes or writings (preferably from ancient or pre-modern writers) on the simultaneous cultivation of both the spiritual and warrior path? Any specifically Daoist tomes in this regard? In short, please discuss anything related to the topic.

I thank you for your response and bringing up your latter point, because it was a question I've had that I am not educated enough to speculate on, namely the relationship and potential harmony of qigong/neidan and Western practices and traditions, such as with Martinism specifically or alchemy more generally. Again, this may be coming from ignorance here, but perhaps the concept of "qi" or a spiritual energy in the world is compatible with the doctrine of the uncreated energies one sees in Eastern orthodox conceptions relating to theosis and thus provide a rational reason to pursue qigong/neidan in a purely Western esoteric/Hermetic or even purely Christian context.

The symbolism of the paradisal island is a widespread one and one with profounder meaning than it may seem on the surface. Two examples aside from the Daoist Penglai and related islands would be the various Celtic/Irish Otherworld Islands such as Avalon, Tir na nOg, etc. and the Buddha's use of the image of an island for nirvana. The reason for this was that in many forms of traditional symbolism, one of the symbols of "the waters" was essentially the conditioned world of change and flux which we find ourselves ensnared in, much in the same way that Narcissus was entranced by his reflection in the waters, which he fell into and proved to be his end. The island, on the other hand, is that solid foundation that is "above" or "beyond" the waters, cannot be overwhelmed by the waters, and so on. In other words, the paradisal islands are as much symbols ontological states (that of the sage, the "true man", the immortal, etc.) as "places." In any case, regarding the topic matter, I think Julius Evola in his pamphlet on Daoism (really his introduction to the old Italian version of the Daodejing) sums up the postmortem situation. Here's a screen capture from the PDF (text can't easily be copied and I don't have enough time or patience to type it out now):

I had two questions regarding Daoism that I've been pondering lately, though they might be fairly obscure or even unimportant in the grand scheme of things but I nonetheless find intriguing. Having done some reading in the past on the writings of Henry Corbin, which mostly deal with Iranian Sufism, Zoroastrianism, Ismailism, Esoteric Shi'ism, etc. one finds two themes that perhaps are common in Western (Near Eastern and actual Western/European/Christian) theology, namely that of the metaphysics of Light and angels. So my questions are: 1. Does Daoism have much to say on light and its metaphysical quality? For example, the Supreme or Absolute is often called the "Light of Lights" or imagined as a supersensible Sun, and all of reality including the material world is seen as an emanation or form of light. I know in classical Daoism the Dao itself is sometimes described as 玄 (xuan) which can mean "dark" but also mysterious and also that the Dao is described as transcending dualities such as light and dark, but is there any relationship that any of you know of between light and the Dao or perhaps light and man/immortals, etc.? 2. Do you believe the 仙 (xian) or immortals or perhaps the gods of Daoism can be seen as the equivalent to angels, if not in a Western Christian sense perhaps in a more general or Zoroastrian sense? To quote Henry Corbin regarding Ismaili esotericism: In other words, man is to become an "angel", much in the same way the goal of Daoism is to achieve the golden elixir, become an immortal, and unite with the Dao. In short, how should one think of angels in relation to Daoism?

As far as I understand it, there have been multiple views and perspectives in Daoism on our fate after death throughout history. To state some: --Our hun and po souls separate and our individual self returns to the universe (spirit to the heavens, body to earth) to be cycled through into some other form of existence (the notion of bianhua 变化 or change.) This is the fate of most normal people --Later the Daoists would expand upon this idea with more specifically Buddhist influenced visions of transmigration based upon ones karma --Of course the sage or "true man" 真人 or immortal would be one who wouldn't face a similar end, attaining what was seen as variously a unity with the Dao beyond the changes or bianhua, entrance into the heavens/paradise and celestial hierarchy/administration, and the creation of the perfected alchemical body or "body outside ones body" (身外身) In short, it can be certain that the Daoists didn't see some sort of nihlistic end of complete annihilation, even if the possibility that the ego-body or "small self" might meet such an end. It also appears that the postmortem fate of your average Joe and the fate of the sage or alchemical master was seen as different. It would seem another view (expressed in the Zhuangzi for at some parts for instance) albeit one I believe to be a minority would be that everyone would simply return to the Dao or what they were prior to birth after death. As far as I am aware, the two primary living forms of Daoism (Quanzhen and the various groups under the Zhengyi alliance) don't adhere to this notion.

Something I've peen pondering lately, hopefully I can receive some input and ideas from like minded people here on the forum: For one dedicated to cultivation (be it on a Daoist path, a Buddhist path, or some other path) in the modern world and who isn't independently wealthy (most people I'd imagine), how does one balance ones career/work life and cultivation? Is there enough hours in the day to devote to a full time career and the necessary work to see the path through to its end (immorality/attaining the Dao, Buddhahood, etc.) for those with such an ambition? In the past many became monastics or hermits to accomplish those ends, and those that continued to be in the world lived in a world less hectic in most regards compared to our own. As such, how realistic is it to pursue the path while also having a career necessary for survival? On another note, which careers in the modern world do you think are particularly suited to cultivators? I'd imagine artists and musicians of various sorts would find their work to be quite compatible, but then the ability to be an artist and have employment/survive in the modern world isn't something everyone can accomplish. Contrarily, I'd imagine some sort of work that taxes you so physically or mentally that you are constantly exhausted would not be conducive to cultivation. I ask this question both out of general curiosity and for personal reasons. I myself have long since decided to dedicate my life to the path and for the past few years have bounced around various freelancing, part-time, and otherwise unfulfilling forms of work with barely the ability to survive. Personally the things that interest me (cultivation, esotericism, art, music, philosophy, history, mythology, poetry, culture, language learning, etc.) aren't fields where much of a career can be made outside perhaps academia which I have little interest in for various reasons. I've been considering getting into IT(networking) as a means to live independently, but I sometimes fear at how much conflict there will be with the pursuit of the path and my own real interests. What are your thoughts on these areas?

Thanks for the advice everyone. I've been mulling it over the past few days and I keep coming back to something I've been interested in for years that, while perhaps not a permanent solution, is something I genuinely would like to do and would help with my interests, namely teaching English in China/Taiwan. The reason I am interested in this is obviously it would put me in direct contact with Daoism and other areas I have an interest in learning (I am interested in learning the guqin, shan shui painting, and mastering Chinese.) As noted, I actually have a general interest in languages and like discussing the Chinese language, its relation to English, and teaching others either of the two topics (despite the fact that I have a basic to mid level fluency if that...not too bad but still a lot to learn in other words.) Problem is to legally do that I need a four year degree and I really don't want to wait four years and don't have the money to spend on school anyway. I am aware of some degree programs in Taiwan for Chinese as a second language and I hear that Taiwan has some generous scholarships for foreign students (some even claiming the ability to study nearly for free), so I think I will apply my efforts in this area and hope for the best. That said I still will continue to study an IT field (networking as of now, perhaps with a focus on Cisco security later) as a back up and means to earn enough money to pay for my own schooling in case the previous plan falls through. Anyone hear have any experience either earning a degree in Taiwan or China or teaching English there with perhaps some advice? More broadly, rather than my own personal problems feel free to offer any further insight on the nature of ones work life and cultivation life, how to balance them, advice in these areas, etc. as I am certainly interested in learning as much as I can.

Thanks, so I take it that someone interested in pursuing a neidan path would benefit from practice of zhan zhuang? Is there a particular zhan zhuang posture that is recommended for this purpose?

Hello, Currently I am meditating for half an hour in the morning, doing about half an hour of qigong/neigong around noon, another 20 minutes of the same qigong/neigong a few hours later, zhan zhuang for 10 minutes at a time at least once a day but sometimes up to three, and what I consider my "main" qigong/neigong exercise in the evening perhaps for 30-40 minutes including a short meditation afterward, and finally before going to sleep I try to lie in bed doing a deep breathing meditation for anywhere between 10-30 minutes. This schedule is of course subject to change depending on what work I have to do or other conditions that may arise. Besides this I try to maintain clarity/stillness, detachment, etc. throughout the day and during work. So I suppose altogether at this time, usually something around 3 hours give or take, sometimes more sometimes less. Of course as I progress further along and begin to learn neidan as I desire in the future, more time will likely be needed to be allotted. This could be done by doing less sleeping and other activities of course, but what I worry most about in regards to full time work is the levels of exhaustion or confused schedules that may arise from it.

Hi, by spiritual goals of Daoism I meant activities that lead toward greater clarity/stillness, are supplements or are part of the process of neidan, and which ultimately lead to attaining the Dao/becoming an immortal (得道成仙.) I know some practices (like various forms of Qigong) are more of a medical and martial nature than purely for spiritual goals, whereas while I am interested in having good health too, I am mostly interested in these areas as part of the spiritual and/or alchemical path. So where does zhan zhuang fit in this regard and how is zhan zhuang related to the path of neidan?

A "job" I'd love would be to be a Daoshi, dedicated to self-cultivation on the one hand and teaching/helping others on the other hand. Other jobs I'd love would be involved with art/music/aesthetics or something dealing with historical/cultural areas that interest me. None of these things seem very realistic in modern America. I perhaps would have liked to be a teacher, especially if teachers were how they were in the older world (say like the Confucian teacher in old China) but pre-university education seems generally atrocious and all the dedication of time/money to become a professor also doesn't seem to suit me. So bereft of being able to do what I love for a living, I figure finding something that I don't hate and that allows me the ability to do what I love while not working is the best compromise. One further problem for me is that I am already 27 years old and a college drop out (didn't want to get in debt and didn't know what I wanted to do so I figured that if and when I do return to school it would be out of my own pocket.) Really one of my plans has been to go to China to teach English so I could study Daoism further and master Mandarin (already semi-fluent through self-study), but I need a degree to do so, and to get a degree I need money, etc. So working in networking is a bit difficult to attain any stable schedule and thus may prove a hamper on practice huh? Which IT field do you think there is, if any, that one could break into without a 4 year degree/just certifications and would be optimal for the topic we are discussing out of curiosity? Another point for the general thrust of the thread is that finding a career where one could work from home seems like it would be beneficial insofar as it cuts out commuting, is more conducive to a hermit way of living, and one could find perhaps a more suitable environment to practice in while one works or while on break, etc.

I suppose for me the issue is that by nature and inclination I am attracted to the ascetic/sadhu/hermit lifestyle (not so much the ideal of say the Trappist monk who remains in one building and is totally cut off from the world for the rest of ones life) but unfortunately our society has no real use or support systems for these sorts of people and especially not within the tradition which most interests me, i.e. Daoism, which of course has only recently been starting to spread outside the Sinosphere and has a limited presence in the West. What I mean by this is I am not a career-ist per say, I have no interest in a career outside of its utility of providing me with a means to survive and live independently. It's unrealistic of course and hence my search for an ideal balance in this area, but if I had my way I would dedicate all my time to spiritual, artistic, and intellectual endeavors. I think another problem is the whole system of the 8 hour, 5 day workweek. Say for example I pursue IT as mentioned in my initial post and secured a position as a network administrator, in most cases (at least that I am aware of), these positions are almost all full-time. But what if I wish to live a simple, ascetic-like lifestyle and don't need or want the amount of money that comes from working full time? People can't just pick and choose to work part time or to fulfill ones financial needs as it suits them. In short, finding the necessary balance between work and cultivation in the modern world seems a difficult nut to crack. It'd be nice to find some sort of ideal that would allow one to successfully fulfill both in harmony, but is there even such an ideal?

Anyone know what this exercise is, where I can learn more about it, or any possible videos of it? I heard about it hear: http://www.lotusneigong.org/nei-gong-1/ If anyone knows what this exercise is, does anyone know anything similar to it with perhaps more information or videos available? Thanks in advance for any help.