manitou

Jesus also said 'Give to Caesar's what is Caesar's.' That would apply to the agreed punishment that society sets for misdeeds. But as Steve said above, forgiveness is about one's self, not the other. To allow unforgiveness safe harbor in your soul is to have to settle for blockage when it comes to attainment that some of us here seek. It just depends on what you want.....self awareness, or the possibility of coming back in the next incarnation and getting the potential of learning the lesson all over again with similar circumstances. Personally, I'd rather get it out of the way in this lifetime. But also, if you're familiar with Sun Tzu's Art of War, the perfect General, the one who will ultimately prevail, is the reluctant one. He does not kill with zeal, he is at one with the Tao and realizes the singularity of all life. He knows that to mow 3 people down is to cut off 3 of his own fingers. But he does what he has to do, what he has vowed to do. But he does it with a heavy heart, not a vengeful one. He doesn't shrink, he defends himself and his comrades - but his heart has not hardened because of it. To be proud of his killing accomplishment would not be in his character. To the opposite.

My computer, for some reason, couldn't play the clip. But I did hear him this morning giving his version of 'If you hit a hornet's nest with a stupid stick, don't be surprised at what happens next."

That is a perfect description of conditional love.

The Dao will work as the Dao will work. I am not so arrogant as to think anyone will pay attention to my posts. I am only looking with very long eyes. I can see no other alternative. The current way we are going is annihilation, if we continue down the same road. The Dao lives within the millionaires and billionaires as well, only they may not know it. All things will work as they must. Marbles, I live in Singularity and you live in Duality. In singularity, the Dao is within us all, waiting to be recognized. It is the intelligence underlying all, waiting within us to be recognized and acknowledged. It is in nature, in the rotation of the planets, in the seasons, in the moon and the ebb and flow of the tides. In Duality, there is no recognition of a unifying underlying intelligence that encompasses everything and everyone. So-called religious people live in Duality, in that they think there is a separate intelligence out there that acts a bit like Santa Claus. Neither one of us buys into that concept. That's why it doesn't matter whether billionaires read these posts or not. I'm not, WE are not, the causative agent for change. The billionaires don't have to be the causative agent either. The Dao is doing what it is doing, and we, us humans, are the channels for the workings of the Dao. More often than not, the Dao seems to work 'to the opposite' of what we think is happening. As awful as things in the world seem, we must remember that only the ugly makes news. There is an equally beautiful force for 'good' (a seemingly dual concept, but I have to use this for my purposes here) that remains under the radar and attracts no attention. People of spirit are raising to new levels; mass communication is also raising the awareness of people all over the world, although, again, only the negative is broadcast on the news. It's in our faces all the times, unfortunately; the beauty and the wisdom must be searched out. But the Dao is in total balance, although not apparent to our eyes at this time. And the funny thing, is that it's all Awareness. Things seem to be happening at such a fast rate now because our Awareness is moving at the speed of light, as to our communications with each other across the world. Agreed as to the labor unions. But that only works in industrialized societies.

I still think the current state of Capitalism is one of the problems. If young people have nothing more to look forward to than joining a hate group, what else will they do? I think it's time that we consider that rich vs. poor or desperate enter the equation. And I don't think it's going to work merely on a regional or national level. I think it must be done on a world wide level. Just as this thread has become as polarized as it has, so will the world become more polarized as the capital remains in the hands of only a few. There was a real need for the industrial template of capitalism at the time of the industrial revolution and the time of Henry Ford, etc. There was need for innovation, and the entire world has benefited from innovation in many ways. But now the capital is just stuck at the top, and anger sits at the bottom. Just looking at it from a different dimension, and one that I think has to be considered. I'm not advocating any existing governmental system as a model; I think some creative thinking is in order. The west can no longer sit smugly in comfort while so many others in the world suffers. I do not say this out of a bleeding heart, although my heart is one of Oneness. I say this with all pragmatism in mind. How can the current state of affairs, escalating as it is, end in peace?

What is to be deflated must first be inflated (Yutang)

I'm surprised they haven't shut down the whole TTB structure because of this very thread.

I couldn't agree more with the article, as it pertains to angry young men. And I'm going to sound like a total socialist here. We have a form of government called Capitalism that seems to worship capital. It seems to me that capitalism has gone about as far as it can possibly go - the disparity between the rich and poor is getting ridiculous in this country. The wealthy keep getting wealthier, the poor keep getting poorer. Perhaps it is time for the world to get together and start thinking about giving opportunities for these disenfranchised young men - how can any solution be otherwise? Perhaps it's time for the richest of us to understand that hoarding all this stuck energy (money) is the very cause of this situation? It is certainly as important, IMO, as the religion one is born into. If the angry young men weren't so disenfranchised, they wouldn't need to join these groups that will care for them and their families, only to be sent out to do harm to others that don't share their religious view. What else do many of these young men have to identify with? Nothing, as far as I can see. Sure, the brothers who attacked the magazine were born in France - but does that mean they were not disenfranchised as well? Were they first generation French, but still had their hearts and minds with those back home? Do Muslims in general feel 'separate' from the French citizenry, particularly those who gravitate toward neighborhoods of other Muslims? My guess is that they do, and the anger if fostered within their community. Ever insult hurled their way only serves to enrage further and further. Does free speech have to mean we have the right to insult anyone we want, and screw everyone else? Actually, I think it will be really interesting to see what this new magazine cover will accomplish. As I said, the message is actually kind of wonderful. The I Am. We Are. And that includes all of us, not just us Westerners.

As one very wise Bum pointed out to me, if you're going to hit a hornet's nest with a stupid stick, don't be surprised at the results. Surprisingly enough, this new cover of Mohammed crying with his 'I Am Charlie' sign is very deep and true. I doubt though, that the writers of that cartoon are truly within the I Am consciousness when they wrote that - the mean-spiritedness of the magazine overall in the past would seemingly attest to that. But perhaps something deep within the cartoonist came to the fore; or maybe he truly understands the I Am consciousness. If he did, however, I doubt that he'd work at the magazine. We are all one another, and we must take each other as we are, not 'as we ought to be'. If radical Muslims have no stomach for satire about Mohammed, then we shouldn't be surprised and demand that they be Tolerant, when in fact they are unable to do so. To me, that is hitting the hornet's nest with a stupid stick. But as I said previously, this is the working of the Dao. It's just that things must be inflated before they can be deflated, as per the TTC (Yutang). The scab has been ripped off, as the scab of racial tension has been ripped off in this country. As I zoom out to space and look back at the earth, I see the workings of the Dao very clearly in all of this. Love for our brother, as ourself, must win out in the end. But it will take a whole lot of strife first.

An elderly couple had just learned how to send text messages on their mobile phones. The wife was a romantic type and the husband was more of a no-nonsense guy. One afternoon the wife went out to meet a friend for coffee. She decided to send her husband a romantic text message and she wrote: "If you are sleeping, send me your dreams. If you are laughing, send me your smile. If you are eating, send me a bite. If you are drinking, send me a sip. If you are crying, send me your tears. I love you." The husband texted back to her: "I'm on the toilet. Please advise." (Note: this was just one of those silly things going around the internet. I wish the images of the sweet little elderly couple had come out in my cut and paste) But funny nonetheless.

Just considering the possible working of the Dao.

I think it all comes down to price tags. And price tags are the likely result of what will happen (given the nature of human nature) if an action is performed. So the magazine likes to satirize religion of every sort. Perhaps Christians and Jews are more tolerant. Muslims, a certain contingent at least, are not. So...the price tag of printing an offending cartoon is likely to be retaliation, in that case. But looking at it from the other side, when Muslims who wear head gear as a result of what their religion says to do - when they wear head gear in another country (say, France) - human nature is going to result in many French seeing them as 'separate from them', and in some cases, the enemy. Particularly in lieu of what just happened in Paris. So perhaps it would be wise, before any actions are taken, to consider that there is likely to be a price tag on it. And then to make the decision as to whether or not they are willing to pay the price tag before they take the action. Head scarves of Muslim women is entirely appropriate and they certainly have every right to wear it, regardless of where in the world they are. But I can guarantee that folks wearing this apparel in France will be looked at with a tinge of fear from here on. That is the price tag. Hopefully it will not result in more retaliation. Maybe the Muslim requirement on this should be updated to coincide with the times, and with human nature. If the apparel were not different, there would be a blending of people more easily. Just pragmatism there. I'm not saying anybody 'should' or 'shouldn't' do anything. But they wouldn't be the first world religion to update their mandates, and maybe it's time for them to consider this. Human nature being what it is; that is not going to change. The thing I find most interesting about all these developments is the "I Am (Charlie...et al)" movement that has taken off. Could this possibly be an open door, although a bit contorted, to the 'I Am Consciousness' enlightening, in a very strange form?

Well, I wasn't out at the fishpond, but I was in the bathroom when I realized that you and I are so very close to being on the same page. When I said earlier that nobody should get their panties in a twist because I mentioned 'god', this is exactly what I meant. I think that only a tiny membrane is separating our views, and they're not actually separate at all. When you say 'time for us to start taking responsibility for our actions', I am in full agreement. But I am in full agreement because there 'is no god out there'....it's in HERE. In our hearts, our souls. Tag. We're 'it'. We are the Manifester. No, there is nothing out there to pray to, to implore, to blame. We create our own reality by our attitudes, we manifest our own circumstances. This would seem to align pretty well with your view as well. We both consider ourselves 'athiests' in the sense that there's no foreign being apart from ourselves. But....we are, all of us, part of the melody, the harmony, the clocklike workings of life. The ancient Greeks would call it the Logos. I would call it gravity, mutual attraction, the oak within the acorn, the inner template of life that pushes outward and manifests. We are the microcosm to the macrocosm, and the laws of nature is the very thing that I see as 'god'. And you and I are both a part of it. And the proof of this seems to be how very different our lives become as our attitudes change, as judgment leaves our hearts, as kindness prevails within our soul. The manifestations change, our circumstances change. It's magical, almost. Despite our occasional bickerings - which I really don't think we need to do any more because we really are on the same page - I love you very much. I admire the time you put into this forum and keeping it flowing. And you are always to be counted on for good humor. Namaste, my darling Marbles. Seriously.

When we have experiential knowledge that is truth, it resonates. Intellectual knowledge does not resonate, although it seems that a mix of the two is pragmatic. Intellectual knowledge can shorten the process and point the way to experiential knowledge. This is self-realization.

Wow, Marbles.

Karma isn't great. It isn't not-great. It is what it is. If you poke your finger at a rabid skunk, you're going to get bit, as Steve said. To call the people two people a-holes is to misunderstand the gist of the Tao. They are not separate from you, any more than you are separate from the Logos. We are all part of it; they are part of us. The best of us and the worst of us; within that is contained the potential for all of our characters, despite how we feel at this moment. Sorry, I must use myself as an example here, because I'm the only one I really know. When I was retired off the police department, I was having visions of going into the police station with an M16 and blowing away everyone I could find, because of circumstances that had happened. Obviously I needed much therapy, and I needed to get sober and find my inner peace. This I did. But I can still relate to the human emotion, because I've had it myself to some degree. I felt the same as they do, and they went the one step further and physicalized their emotions. I did not. But if I had not left the department when I did, I very well may have. There but by the Grace of God (an expression only) go I, as they would say in recovery programs. Please, nobody get their panties in a twist because I mentioned God. You know what I mean by the expression. The shooters in this case had different buttons pushed. they have never done the work to remove their buttons, obviously. But if they did have the opportunity, perhaps in their next life, to remove them, we may well find them here on TTB's speaking of the Oneness of everything. We are all connected by the soul, and we all have the same capacities, given the right circumstances. For good, or for so-called evil. The point of transcension, of finding the vacant hole in the cup of the Tao, is to be non-judgmental. Doesn't mean we have to buddy up to folks who appear 'evil', but to see them with compassionate eyes. We, too, are them. They too started out as perfect little beings, but being born into particular circumstances their path was to become completely contorted. I too am an Atheist. In the sense that I outgrew my childhood teaching of there being a god 'out there' who is directing traffic. Any of us who have transcended our early paths are atheists in that sense. But to wear the badge of atheism is a path as well. One can even sit in the vacant hole in the middle of the wagon wheel, the vacancy which enables all the spokes of the wheel to maintain their strength and cause the wheel to function, and call himself an atheist. But this is an atheist with an air gun, who shoots at all those who have outgrown their paths to get to the hole. The atheist who understands the Logos and realizes that he is part of it is merely an atheist who has developed understanding of the Tao and the Oneness of all mankind. Otherwise, it's just an atheist with an airgun. As to the shooters, there but by the 'Grace of God' (or Logos) go I. Go we. To live in separation, to think that we are somehow different and of a separate human race somehow is to live in duality. And duality is not reality.

Really nicely said.

For one to believe that being spiritual has nothing to do with politics or the way the world works, Bubbles, is to not be spiritual at all. The two cannot be separated.

Of course I'm not trying to make it justifiable. I'm trying to make it understandable. Here's my point. If you were raised in the same family, under the same circumstances, within the same peer group, in a religion that has one very small faction of violence contained within; that there is all likelihood that you, in your mind, would feel that you are protecting your beloved prophet, and in fact were performing your religious duty to do so. If we are dealing with people with this mindset, then to continue to insult their beloved prophet will produce the very same results over and over. Just like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I am saying that further insults and further police action, further military build-up toward countries that do not believe in freedom of speech will produce only a build-up of tension and result in total world conflict. Everbody is armed now. With big weapons. I am saying that the only thing that can prevail over this is love. Very, very, very creative love by leaders, societies, and Imams that have the capacity to reach across the divide and help those that listen to them to understand the Oneness of us all. I believe the very worst mindset we can have is the one several posts ago, where we are flipping off those with that ideology. What would the Sage do? What would Buddha do? What would Jesus do? Can you see any of them flipping off their opponent? I say, we must open our hearts as wide as we possibly can and look for solutions; not to continue to inflame under the guise of free speech. Just because we have it doesn't mean we have to abuse it.

Well, we do have the precious freedom of speech. Let us just know that for using it to insult the disenfranchised, these hostage situations are the price tag? Are we willing to continue paying it?

And this is why it is incumbent upon those world leaders who are capable of reaching across the divide, swallowing their national pride, and trying to bridge the gap to some point of understanding to do so. Things are only getting worse, not better. Seeking revenge as a motive, wishing hateful ways for the perpetrators to die - these are not the actions of the sage. The Tao must be followed, and loving kindness is at the heart of it. As you say, 'that which is against the Tao will soon cease to be.' Yes, I agree with what CT said above - of course if I were a police sniper and it were my job, one must do what one must do. But CT also alluded to the reluctant warrior, the concept of Sun Tzu. To not relish the taking of life. What could possibly further the Tao by enraging a particular segment of people, in this case some Muslims who have no appreciation for farcical depictions of their beloved prophet, intentionally? To sell some newspapers? Because we have the legal right to free speech does not mean that we all go around and verbally assault everybody we come across. If people of the spirit were in the majority, human kindness and understanding would prevail. The Tao would continue its course of love; best case scenario is that we would love our brothers as ourselves. And even the angry hot-headed Muslims who twist the Koran to suit their purposes are our brothers; it cannot be otherwise. The world is as a huge giant squid with all the tentacles fighting amongst themselves, not knowing they're all attached. This intentional agitation has got to stop. We have got to get a hold of ourselves. For the people of spirit on this forum, do we walk our talk, or do we merely pass around pretty words and lofty thoughts, only to walk away from our computers and hate our neighbors? To disregard human kindness and compassion? To buy into the hate talk? Hopefully not. Can we not step into the moccasins of those born on a dusty patch of dirt - who have no access to clean water - who perhaps are supported by the local religious sects and dependent upon them for food - whose only reason for living is as they are taught from birth - to revere their beloved prophet? I look at the horrible fighting that takes place for territory in countries where there is virtually nothing to fight over but sand. Can we not see where they are coming from and understand why it is that they react so violently? It's all they have; they probably have no opportunity for employment, for travel, for recreation, for going to a movie, for any of the thousands of things we take for granted. And now that they can see for themselves just how the West lives in relative luxury, even those of us who have humble homes - it is so far superior to what they have that is it not understandable human nature that they would be envious? That they would hate the way we live because they cannot have it? That they would hate us because we are so much more fortunate? They can see it on TV now. They can see it on the internet. This is a relatively new phenomenon, and perhaps it explains much of the violent anger rising in this day of mass communication. Yes, the way of the Tao must prevail. But to continue on the path we are is sure annihilation - there will be no winner. Cooler heads must prevail, and we must accept that we are all brothers. We don't get to pick and choose.

Then Almitra spoke, saying, We would ask now of Death. And he said: You would know the secret of death. But how shall you find it unless you seek it in the heart of life? The owl whose night-bound eyes are blind unto the day cannot unveil the mystery of light. If you would indeed behold the spirit of death, open your heart wide unto the body of life. For life and death are one, even as the river and the sea are one. In the depth of your hopes and desires lies your silent knowledge of the beyond; And like seeds dreaming beneath the snow your heart dreams of spring. Trust he dreams, for in them is hidden the gate to eternity. Your fear of death is but the trembling of the shepherd when he stands before the king whose hand is to be laid upon him in honour. Is the shepherd not joyful beneath his trembling, that he shall wear the mark of the king? Yet is he not more mindful of his trembling? For what is it to die but to stand naked in the wind and to melt into the sun? And what is it to cease breathing, but t free the breath from its restless tides, that it may rise and expand and seek God unencumbered? Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing. And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb. And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance.

Yes, you are Charlie. You have stepped out of duality. So remain out of duality and realize that you are also the gunmen.

No, the OP is pleading for sanity in our satire and to not be stupid or surprised when people who are not accustomed to the free press reacting as they do. And I've come to the conclusion that death may be the best thing that happens to us, the best experience of our lives perhaps. It only appears awful from this side of the curtain because people fear the unknown. Maybe it's not something to fear at all. Maybe everything is exactly opposite of how it appears to be.

It's not Us vs. Them. It's Us vs. Us. Can we not understand that they did not grow up in a free-speech society? That in most cases the worlds they came from are dusty, barren places with no natural resources other than oil - and their feeling is 'what do I have to live for anyway?' We here in the States are accustomed to beautiful mountains, bountiful water, green trees everywhere - all resources at our fingertips. No wonder it is a privilege in their minds to die for their cause. We sit here in our comfortable homes, wherein many live in shacks and off the earth in the Muslim countries. The oil that is sold, the diamonds that are mined - do the people at the bottom see the benefits of these? I don't think so at all. I'm just saying that a little human kindness will go a long way, and to knock it off with the satire that so inflames them. I'm not against free speech, I'm against human unkindness. And in the name of comedy, just to produce a few chuckles, fame, and job security? If we keep this up, what is the end game? Anybody? Anything other than total destruction? The polarization is getting so palpable that it can almost be seen in the air. And as to the police officer shootings - the police unions are so strong and often so mean-spirited (I really do know what I am talking about here - I was a union rep for my division at LAPD) it's turned into an 'Us vs. Civil Rights' issue in some police sectors. Sure, there's plenty of kind cops - but they're not the ones turning their back on the mayor of NY every chance they get. There has to be a meeting of the minds on this, worldwide. If we don't throw our understanding of human nature into the mix and consider it in our actions, then we are fools.