manitou

For anyone still following this thread, I just came across another great passage which goes into depth as to the qualities of the enlightened mind. I find it very comprehensive, and a good way to gage where we are on the path. "Once great enlightening beings have attained these ten kinds of excellence, they also attain ten kinds of power, cultivating practices in the realm of sentient beings; first is the power of courageous strength, because they tame worldlings; second is the power of energy, because they never backslide; third is the power of nonattachment, because they get rid of defiling obsessions; fourth is the power of silent calm, because they have no disputes about anything; fifth is the power to oppose or conform, because they are free in the midst of all things; sixth is the power of the nature of things, because they attain mastery of all truths; seventh is the power of nonobstruction, because their knowledge and wisdom is immensely vast; eighth is the power of fearlessness, because they can explain all truths; ninth is the power of intellect, because they can hold all truths; tent is the power of revelation, because their knowledge and wisdom is boundless."

I would suspect that it does in that frame of reference, if the populous thereafter derived benefit from their work product. Why not? Your point is well taken - much slavery throughout time and around the world, different groups affected. However, I am dealing with what is in front of me now, that's all. I seem to have developed to a point where I'm unwilling to take what they've done for granted, as I did for so many years.

Iain - your explanation is comprehensive for our purposes here. To personalize the concept, or simplify it, by the usage of Bramha, Visnu, and Rudra/siva is a nice anthromorphic framework, capable of humans to relate to for understanding that which is not very comprehendible with our linear minds. This is why the quantum physics thing is saying virtually the same thing - that collided particles will manifest to the past, present, and future. I can understand this impossible concept through the concept of a time warp in the space-time dimension, where perhaps time folds over itself, or at least metaphoric wormholes are in play. Or take the Dao De Ching - all emanates from the One (once that has manifested from the Dao) and the 10,000 things arise in time and space. But in reality, you could look at it backwards, leave the 10,000 things, and revert to the One, and the intent which came before it. It is by having the ability to shift our perspective as needed that the whole enchilada can be viewed by one with vision, eliminating Time from the equation. IntuitiveWanderer - you can hardly refer to 7 edited posts as being compulsive, lol. Wait till you've hit about the 200th edited post. It's funny how concepts continue to evolve in our minds even after we've written them down - the moment we walk away from the computer, the mind seems to collect all the little particles that tweak what we've just written toward a more clarifying truth. I'm just glad we've got the Edit key. I've 'edited' posts that were no more than 5 or 6 words to begin with!

Hi, IntuitiveWanderer - I so understand what you're saying. That true liberation comes when no feelings arise when the object contacts the senses. This puts us humans in a bit of a quandary, I think. I could dwell on my own liberation, liberating myself from feeling anything toward those less fortunate. Perhaps that would be the truly wise thing to do. On the other hand, did not even Quan Yin turn her back on Nirvana and reach back to those who still suffer? This is an enigmatic problem, if you ask me. As long as there is something that motivates me to lend an assist to those in need, I think it wiser to follow that calling; but you may be right. Perhaps it is my own lack of enlightenment that causes me to still entrench myself in this situation - at this point, sending a check to the church each month. But it even says in the Tao - (paraphrased, depending on translation) - that there are two ways of 'knowing' something - from the inside (wherein we are entrenched) and from the transcendent, where the whole forest can be seen in its entirety and where no emotions are involved. I'm not sure that the Tao prefers one to the other - I think it's our choice. So here I am, sitting on the horns of an enema, lol. To entrench, or to transcend? I am capable of both. It just seems like there's so much work to be done toward true equality in this country, that I can't live with myself if I just sit back. We live in a world of Action, but we can also choose Disengagement. Welcome to this wonderful forum, by the way! I can see that you are going to be a marvelous addition!

I'd love it if you'd expand a bit on the AUM-ness. I'm assuming you're saying past, present, and future are all emanations of the original AUM sound, the vibratory expression. Is that what you're talking about? This certainly merges the past slavery condition with the present; but hopefully mankind will en masse reach the conclusion that ALL must be included in the upper trajectory of human existence, not just SOME. The arrogance and influence of our wealthy predominately white leaders (in this country) must certainly be leveled at some point, if this dynamic follows the dictates of nature. The fact that science has quantified this through the above mentioned quantum physics excites me greatly - like philosophy and science meeting at the top of the hill, although both came up different paths.

Iain, what a kind soul you are. No, I never thought about the UK having the same genesis as the U.S. did. I guess it's more visible to me over here because we see so much of the aftereffects of the vast quantity of Africans being brought here to do the work. And we live with this every day of our lives. Every single day, every one of us derives the benefits of what the slaves built. And every single day, we can also see the results of what we did to an entire population. they were given nothing but a plantation system in which to live, and this resulted in dependence on the plantations. There are many strands of this dependence carrying over into the present day - and this is the very thing that many resent them for. The descendants of the slaves who have found their own true strength and independence are a thing of beauty to behold. And no doubt extra-strong because of their difficult heritage, both ancestral and immediate. I know what you mean about the 3 generation thing, forwards and back. Limiting it to 3 generations would probably explain one's immediate traits or tendencies. (And this includes 3 to the future as well, if you throw in the concept of quantum physics, use the space/time dimension, and realize that when an atom is smashed in a Hadron collider, the resulting particles (although they've lost no mass!) have a trajectory not only in the present, but into the past and FUTURE as well! Jeez, how can this be, other than the illusion of our linear-thinking brains seeing all things happening in a sequence of linear time? But as it is all Here and Now, I suspect that one could go much further than 3 generations in both directions to find more subtle influences. And grand societal influences, such as the one we're talking about here, must extend from the seeming beginning to the seeming end. And yet, all happening Now. I guess this plays on my mind more here in Ohio than when I was living in California, the 'left coast'. This part of Ohio is stuck in time; there is much social stratification here on a fairly small scale, and it really jumps out at you. We have the country club set in town, with their noses truly in the air - all the way to families whose entire lives were tied up in the steel mills and pottery factories; and now both of these industries are dead in this area. There is true blight on East End, which is where the Baptist church is. Guess I just never gave it this much 'personal' thought before, Iain. It's in my face daily here; and coincidentally, since I've lived back here in Ohio, I've had some fun with our family's genealogy, which resulted in the breath-taking discovery of the slave ship builders from the 1700's in the family. It's just all so Here and Now. I guess this is where I'm supposed to be, and there are things that I see that need to be shaken up or dislodged within my own psyche. Your mention of high risk taking and lack of empathy is an interesting juxtaposition. To get to the point of high risk taking, one would necessarily have to squash those parts of himself that are vulnerable (the empathetic parts). Good observation, IMO!

Soaring Crane - not only is it Humor, but I see the reaction as Love as well. Humor is just the form that love comes in in this particular case. There was some fairly enlightened thinking on the part of someone to devise that response to the marchers. I especially like the food and goodies to keep them going. Gee - maybe next year someone can keep track of how far they march and get people to pledge a certain amount of money per mile (or block, etc) and then contribute the money to a cause that is totally dedicated to wiping out neo-Nazism. If it were sufficiently advertised, I would think it would discourage further marches because they would see it as counter-productive.

Your words ring absolutely true - thank you so much, Iain. Sometimes I think the white population in the U.S. has never fully accepted the fact of equality. I can't help but think that there is, within us, a deep lying guilt about having kidnapped and enslaved an entire group of people, and this has never been dealt with here in the U.S.....even if it was our distant ancestors. And I would guess most of us have distant ancestors who were in one way or the other involved in the horrible practice of slave trading or plantation living. In my particular case,my ancestors in the late 1600's and 1700's actually built slave trading ships out of Newburyport, Massachusetts. I am guessing that there is a part of all of us U.S. caucasians who feel that we are 'due what we deserve' in regards to all this - and this debt to the black population has never been paid. I feel like this is an undercurrent that is so subtle we don't know it's there. Perhaps this is why the Caucasians have always done their best to keep the black man down (not at an individual level, but I'm speaking of a collective level). All I know is that I don't want it. I don't want a fear of any sort, and this qualifies as a fear, albeit subtle and temporary. All I can do is try to bend this fear One Day at a Time as situations arise.

What a perfectly excellent way to turn the tables and turn something ugly into something constructive. Certainly it would make the n-n marchers take pause..

How did the date go? Did she go out with you again?

Now I'm going to embarrass you, because I know you weren't serious. This place would not be the same without you. That's what I think about you.

'Highly rationally oriented'. That seems to be the crux of the problem, lol. Some of us have spent years in professions - legal, etc - where extreme rational thinking is required. As a career detective, this is my curse. Yes, it can be very irritating when someone tells you to 'imagine a sphere' below the naval, if you're a rationally minded one. The only way I can feel these sensations, such as a sphere under the naval, is to do a very minimalistic circling of my hips - not so that it's obvious to anyone else - but 'jump-starting' the sensation of anything such as a sphere. This seems to work for me, to start the visualization with an actual physical motion in the same area.

Are you still keeping her tied up outside?

Exactly. It's all mind, and the mind manifests.

I used to work alongside another cop in a small room, who was narcissistic to the max. I had to spend 8 hours a day with him at the same squad table. We worked together for about two years. I've never had a more mind-numbing experience in my life. His name was Jerry, and every sentence he spoke, in general, pointed to himself in some way. Every single thing he experienced in life was All About Jerry. The funny thing was, I don't know if I've ever seen a man more good looking than Jerry, and it was astonishing how insecure he was about himself and women. But he was constantly drawing attention to his looks - always wanted to know how his hair looked, how this shirt looked - and yet no amount of assuaging him was enough. It was as though his need for approval grew larger and larger by the day. Because our working relationship was so close, I really didn't have the desire (or the knowledge at that time) to pull his covers on this. Relationships with folks like this usually end badly, as did my friendship with Jerry. I got to the point where I just couldn't take him any more (and luckily, I got transferred to another division)

Brian - that is wonderful that you are getting so connected to the healing stream. I've read a lot of Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) and her healing method is much the same - as far as 'seeing the truth about the situation'. And this hooks in with the everything is 'here now' mindset - that yesterday, today, and tomorrow are illusions. It is in using that 'truth' that the flesh and the spirit can be brought into union and the healing effected, because that is the true state of the body as it should be. I like to further triangulate the reason for the manifestation. What's the significance, in that particular person's life, of a pain in the elbow or behind the ear? Is there something they're being repeatedly told that they don't want to hear? (ear) Is there a reason for inflexibility in the elbow? (inflexibility in attitude toward something). Just a little questioning can usually determine the metaphysical 'reason' for the unusual manifestation. I always assume a 'spiritual' cause to the malady. I just got bit by a tick. I got a fever, got sick, and now I can't move my neck. I'm being treated for Lyme's, but the doc doesn't think I'll be getting it because I happened to be taking a prescription of Amoxycillin at the time I got bit, which is what they use to treat Lyme's Disease at the beginning. But getting bit with a tick is unusual. As Don Juan Mateus (Castaneda's nagual) would say - if it's unusual, look at it, it's there for a reason. So I started to triangulate what a 'tick bite' would mean, in my particular case. Tick bite. Tick. Tick. Tic! I have a tic! And it needs to be removed. It's getting in my way. I do like the cannabis, and it's become a bit of an attachment. I can see it clear as day. It was even reaffirmed when I went to a hocus-pocus ladies luncheon today where someone was reading Tarot cards. As I was having mine read, I told her about the tick bite - right after that, she drew the next card, and it was the fellow trying to pull the sword out of the mound. Like....pull that puppy out! Remove the tic!

For some reason the concept of visualization irritates me, lol. Maybe I've been to too many touchy-feely sessions with lady friends and metaphysical beings. I've gone back to using the childhood concept of 'Pretending'. That's all it is, for God's sake. But pretending puts us in the place of the Creator. I do healings this way. I will have people bury photos of other people (involved in their specific dynamics) and give them to 'Jesus' (or whatever entity they need to worship). It's 'pretending' to give them to Jesus. We enabled a cure for a quadriplegic boy by Pretending that his head, arms, and legs were all parts of a floor lamp, and at the appropriate times we turned on the lower parts of the lamp to replicate the energy in his limbs. The boy is getting better. Pretending is so childlike, and yet so powerful. It really does place us in the chair of the Creator. A re-enactment of sorts, an enactment of that which we wish to see changed, like the above mentioned boy. We can all remember what it felt like to be a child - we still have that within us. Why not appeal to that which is already there? Also - when it comes to the word 'imagine', we're really saying image-in.

Not sure what you mean by the conclusion of preference as it relates to my prior post. Can you expand? I think it's possible to be untrue to one's self and true at the same time. Take the case of a battered woman. In one sense, that which keeps her in the relationship is the co-dependent part of her which interacts with the co-dependent part of him. In that sense, she is being 'true to herself', because in fact that's where she is right now. She is co-dependent, to the detriment of her own wellbeing. But 'really' being true to herself would be to search out her dynamics within; for her to find out why she needs the co-dependency, and the courage it will take to change the dynamic and get to a healthier place. That would be to be true to her Real Self, her higher self.

I think it means stripping ourselves down to the generic human being underneath, the enlightened one.I'm not sure what beliefs are any more. Beliefs seem to be a mindset, as a result of our own particular conditioning, that brings us to a conclusion. Are conclusions enlightenment? I don't know. I think 'no conclusion' is the more enlightening mindset. The mindset of a Beginner, a Learner. What are my dislikes? What are my resentments? Does my mind work judgmentally as I'm walking around town during the day? Am I clinging to an anger or what I considered to be a personal affront? Am I capable of seeing that the very thing that irritates me about someone else is because it's rubbing up against the very same thing in myself? I think that knowing ourself (gnowing ourself) is stepping aside from ourselves, looking objectively, and not trying to cover anything up or hold anything back. To see ourselves as we really are, warts and all. Once we come into touch with the parts of ourselves that tend to get in the way of seeing Truth, then it seems that Life will predictably bring things to us that necessitate that particular characteristic being put into play until such time as we finally recognize our wrong habit pattern. At least, that's my observation of how the whole thing works. The offending dynamics within us don't seem to be magically 'removed' once we realize they're there....instead, the situation will then pop up to help us work our way through our old way of doing things. We manifest our own reality, and the Spirit within (Dao, Void, Light, etc) will do the attracting and all we have to do is be aware of our actions while we are walking through the situation. We then have the ability to make the necessary corrections so that this undesirable reaction will not be a factor in the future.

I like the concept of dissolving the self. CT - incredible synchronicity, but not surprising! It almost seems to me that the Sutra is an implantation of some sort - that with all the repetition about the jeweled worlds page after page that there is a reward of sorts for reading it. Almost like a strand of golden hair is being implanted with each repetitive sentence you read. The repetition is beautiful but mind-deadening, and then suddenly you're whisked away to thoughts that are so profound that it takes your breath away. I feel like I'm not reading this Sutra, I'm experiencing this Sutra. Stefos - I'm not sure that kundalini awakening equates to enlightenment? I think that K-awakening is maybe necessary for enlightenment, but I don't think they're the same thing at all. K-awakening seems to be a physical thing that happens to us along the way, for some odd reason. Like the physical body catching up with the spirit body. But becoming K-awakened sure doesn't mean we're There, IMO. As in CT's quote..."Great bodhisattvas have no attachment to Buddha". This makes perfect sense to me - to achieve One Mind we have to step out of the template of the particular path, transcend the form of it.

Me too, hotshot! I am just as dexterous with my left foot as my right. Woo-hoo! I can practically toss a tennis ball with those things.

I'll bet the responses to this topic have a lot to do with each of our phases in life. A younger person will probably see Success as something he has yet to accomplish - making his mark in the world, raising a family, finding a career in which to support yourself. On the other hand, a person who is more in the sunset of their life will look back and see that Success is, as Taomeow said, a 'feeling'. I would guess that most of the older people on this forum who have already established or retired from their careers look back and see Success differently. Funny thing about Success. My brother, by all outward appearances, is Successful. An attorney in a coastal city in California, 3 kids all married now, he's the patriarch of a family getting larger by the day. a better man you could not meet. And yet - he knows that something is missing. He drinks a little excessively to suppress the voice that tells him that he's 'missing something'. We've talked about this - and yet he doesn't want to hear anything about inner exploration or going into his own character. So by a certain measure, yes, he is very successful. Using another measure, he hasn't started the journey yet. I think if we're waiting for the world to hand us our accolades, we're in a no-win situation. Better we make sure our own character is up to par, which is something each and every one of us can find satisfaction in. Then...success is something we judge for ourselves.

Marbles, if you put me on Ignore it wouldn't bother me at all--

The only experience I have with knowing yourself is the inner work I needed to do to stay sober. At the time I was still drinking, my attitudes were all negative and cynical. I was judgmental toward every person, place, and thing. It became soon apparent to me that if I wanted to effect change in my outer world (the drinking world) I had to effect change in the inner world. I did use a 'template' of sorts, a tried and true formula for getting and staying sober through inner work and improving one's attitude toward life. I had to search out all my resentments that I was capable of seeing at the time (this is 33 years ago). Since then, I have to stay on top of this - I cannot let things to come to the point of resentment, lest I lose the comfort zone I require to stay in a nice state of sobriety. The same was true of all the character 'defects' I could come up with at that time - selfishness, arrogance, and the lack of self esteem I had always felt. Somehow they were all mixed up with one another. I had to go back through my life, try to remember anybody I had wronged in the past, and make amends to them. This type of inner work has been described as the direct route to self realization. It is the task of eliminating all the blockages inside us. At least, that was the extent of it at the time I used this for the purpose of staying sober. Well, 33 years later, I see that the true Tao is a 'return to one's self', without all the outer-imposed traits, seemingly good or seemingly bad. It is a return to the generic Human Being that has been there all along, the enlightened being that dwells within. Only my blockages prohibit my view of this Human Being at any given time. When Buddha said 'Know Thyself', my guess is that this is what he was talking about. To peel the onion to the point where only the Tao remains. Getting to this actual point would seem to be impossible, but certainly a worthy thing to desire and strive for, IMO.

This is interesting. If success is something external, is it contingent on how other people perceive us? Is it all about what the outside world thinks?