manitou

How about just the absence of light? shadow without intent, it's all it knows. It's doing it's best too, after all.

And yet can not an accomplished meditator get into this same alignment with the universe? It involves no-thought, however, no concept at all. The absence of ego. Yes, we do create the possibility of error in our thinking if it is coming from our own cogitated conclusions, always subject to our egoistic point of view. It is when this is surrendered in a meditative sense (whether sitting or walking around) that the alignment is perfect. Pure love is emanated. Wish I could join in on the mathematics! I so admire you guys...

And work the wu-wei magic she does by 'doing nothing', lol. Thanks, TM and BKA, for the clarification on the exchange thing. I would do an exchange if someone felt they needed it, but my heart feels best if done from love.

Not so, friend. He is You. If you see him as a jerk all the time, then you have some internal digging to do. Don't you think there would be others who see him as Not-Jerk? It's a question of whether we wish to keep our point of view in the 10,000 things, or have the liberty to see from the One as well. And all points in the middle. It takes both left (organizational) and right brain (intuitive and as a result of going within) activity to see from the One, only left brain activity to see from the 10,000.

My memory is horrible. I'm not remembering a 'Location' thread, and I'm not finding it in General Discussion. Is there something going on on that thread? I have an aside question for those who are willing to demonstrate some of their knowledge or skills. Several people have said they'll do something for an 'exchange'. I have a lady friend who considers herself a Reiki master who says the same. I am a healer and a seer, and heal out of love from my heart, because we are all One. Where is it written that there must be an exchange, that something can't just be given for free out of love? Sorry if this sidetracks, but BKA, you're welcome to move this if you want and keep this thread pure. But a few responses would help keep this thread on the board.

Wow, CT - thanks for taking the initiative. What interesting questions it raises. Is it possible that the deaf, because they do not think in linear terms if they've not learned language, are far closer to the 'truth' than we are. That they are more attuned to the Here and Now because they haven't the distraction, the inner dialogue, of linear thought? Perhaps intuition reigns supreme within those deaf from birth and everything is centered around love (until frustration sets in because they perceive that they are not able to perform in some ways as the others they see around them do?) What questions this raises! I went to a Chinese restaurant last night and there was a family a few booths down that had a child that had some sort of paddle in her hand. She was repeatedly banging on either the table or the booth, and it reverberated throughout the restaurant non-stop, at least for a half hour. As my PTSD symptoms finally kicked in after trying to transcend this for a long while, I decided to approach the parents. Something told me that there could be a medical issue, so I was very careful to approach them kindly, meekly, with a smile on my face. I actually asked them, "unless there is a medical problem at issue, could you please take the paddle away from her?" The parents were wonderful and gently explained that indeed there was a medical issue--she had been blind from birth, but that they were so accustomed to the banging that they didn't hear it any more, and of course they would take the paddle away. I felt like a bit of a jerk, of course, but they were just as nice as they could be, and actually the interchange wasn't a bad one at all. And the banging stopped. But the point is this. As her father explained, she needed to reassure herself that there was 'something there', when in fact she could not see it - so she was constantly looking for reassurance with sound. I'm not sure how this quite ties in with your internet find, but I sense a connection.

Schroedinger might disagree with your last statement, no? Your statement, '1 + 1 = 3 if one of the "1"s is a group of two'. Seems to me like this couldn't be better said. But can you apply this formula to natural phenomena that you see (what you might call reality) and realize that it's all '1', and there is no differentiation between thought and matter? One is the group of two. One is the alpha and the omega, we're just someplace in between right now within the bellows of the yin/yang action and the bubble of manifestation.

9th: It may be possible to experience perception in which there is neither subject nor object, but that is also another matter. Marbles: Yes, another matter. and I don't go there. This hardly seems fair, Mr. MH. If you have knowledge that sorts this all out and you're not willing to cough it up, you're setting up a bit of a Catch 22 for the rest of us to understand. Please do go there. Many of us try to put these things into words on a daily basis on this forum.

I see this just about opposite of how you see this, surprise surprise. We're getting into a chicken and egg situation. It's a question of whether the dynamic is coming to us from the outside (or hitching our wagon only to what we physically see), or manifesting our understanding from the inside to the outside. I don't quite see your point that it is only in the subjective that we have dualities; opposites. when one truly gets to the point of Oneness, we realize that ultimately all life is One and there is no battle between light and darkness; not really - the only battle is a dynamic furtherance into the light; the battle is only the vehicle that consciousness takes to get to the One. The reversion of the Dao, back to the One. The DDJ is not a materialistic writing. It's not saying that we should never question anything. Questioning our own behavior is at the very crux of the matter. It is saying that when judgments are made, the Dao is lost. As I see it, the Sage is the apotheosis of the DDJ - he has attained by practicing the precepts of the DDJ. One either lives it if they take it seriously, or they think they're just pretty words and go on with life as usual and disregard the heart of the matter. Some here are seekers and desire nothing more than to attain the One through the teachings of the DDJ, and see the Sage as a pretty fine template. Or, I suppose, 'What would Jesus do' would get you there as well - with the understanding that Jesus was just a man who found it and manifested the wu-wei and healing. Which it appears that he did. In Chapter 2 (Mitchell)...."When people see some things as beautiful, other things become ugly" Here, the DDJ is telling us to look at it all as one. When the labels of beautiful and ugly were put on an object or situation, the Dao was lost. This understanding is subjective, not objective. The Oneness of everything was lost and a value judgment was made. What is matter? It's a clump of molecules but with space between them; more space between the atoms; more space between the electrons and neutrons and quarks and neutrinos. Space, the cosmic broth, is the stuff of objects when broken down far enough. What holds the molecules into the same position for an extended length of time until the elements take their toll and decay and rust set in? Thought. The Dao. The idea, both manifested by Man and previously the idea was potentiality within the Dao. That to me is more reality than anything physical can possibly be. Some think it's all Mind and that the Dao continues to reign within all objects and situations. Others think the Dao died at the beginning, perhaps, and left us with nothing but residual matter. More interesting to see it as still alive, I think, as it then becomes something we can use by Not-Doing and letting things happen of their own accord. Not an aggressive stance, I realize, but one that has more power because things always align perfectly, although not always as fast as we would like. But it works like magic. Marbles, I disagree your statement about the subjective always acknowledging things as they should be as opposed to how they are. All things are relative. If you think someone is a jerk because of something he did, you would get mad. But this very act of getting mad is because you made a judgment that he was a jerk. You're not seeing things as they really are at all. He may not be a jerk at all, and he would probably see you as a jerk as well. To see things as they really are is to see that he is a part of You, and that you and he reflect each other's character defects, otherwise you wouldn't get mad at each other. the greatest freedom is to love that fellow anyway, despite what he did to you - to not have to respond to him in kind. "I don't care how you feel about me, I'm going to love you anyway" is the greatest freedom of all. When seen in Oneness, that is acknowledging things as they really are.

I've been known to do that in any thread.

Such as, lol?

Being a victim to one's moods isn't mastery, though. it's like being like a stick on the ocean, at the whim of our moods and wherever life wants to take us. In one sense, yes - this could be called the Dao. But on the other hand, this is not the action of the Sage at all. I see lots of folks around here in Appalachia - the poorer parts particularly - that are at the whims of their moods. In fact, they're imprisoned by them, they are not able to transcend them at all. I'm sure that occasionally these folks achieve a neutral state as well - but can they count on it? Not at all. What are the attributes of the Sage? Love, Never too Much, Never be the First. (Yutang), but I'll bet if we triangulated lots of other translations we would come up with the same basic idea. What this means to me is that the Sage is master over his emotions because he makes no judgments, he loves his brother as himself, he Knows Himself. I just picked up Stephen Mitchell's translation to look for his version of the 3 treasures, and I turned to this page instead: Chapter 33: Knowing others is Intelligence: Knowing yourself is true Wisdom. Mastering others is Strength, Mastering yourself is true Power. If you realize that you have enough, you are truly rich. If you stay in the center and embrace death with your whole heart, you will endure forever. This is the trick of the shaman or the sage - to embrace death with his whole heart. To be able to look death in the eye and manage his fear, to face it. When fear of death is gone, what is there left to fear? When fear is gone, anger is gone. All emotions are based on either love or fear. Anger is based on fear (ego fears that we are wrong, that we will look bad if we are exposed to be wrong, that we will not get enough and starve, that we may not come in First and therefore our continual need to prove to ourselves that we are Okay, despite the fact that most of us have been brought up to manifest a lack of self love). To get angry is something that someone who has gotten to Know Themselves, truly Gnow Themselves, would not be subject to doing. This is pure Self-Realization, a component of enlightenment. What's to be angry at, when you know that all things are happening as they should be happening - even politics! To realize that that senator sitting on the opposite side of the aisle is merely playing his part in this great cosmic play, and that the Light will always prevail, sooner or later. It is this that wu-wei is based upon, if we let it just happen. But to let wu-wei just happen takes exquisite balance; because we know ourselves to the core, we can see into others as well. It's riding the ox - keeping the balance. The sage will see way in the distance a negative dynamic coming, and will nip it in the bud with the simplest motion. While in the wu-wei process, the sage will always let dynamics come to him, knowing that within the Dao there is perfect timing. To reach out and grab it prematurely, to stand on his tip-toes and be in an unsteady posture - to curse his brother or to be selfish in his desires and think only of himself - this is not of the sage at all. And it is not of the Dao. I don't think the Dao stopped at the day of creation or the Big Bang, or whatever current theory we're working on. The Dao lives on, has always been, will always be. We're in the middle of it, this living breathing Concept that is Life. The rocks are part of it, the cycles of the stars and planets, our mother earth, the water, the tides, our breathing, our emotions at a baser level. But mastery can be done, and that is the Sage. It's just a question of whether one wants to bother going to the trouble of getting to the mastery or not.

Me too. It's the next logical question once the I Am is found.

Quote "Pratitya samutpada is sometimes called the teaching of cause and effect, but that can be misleading, because we usually think of cause and effect as separate entities, with cause always preceding effect, and one cause leading to one effect. According to the teaching of Interdependent Co-Arising, cause and effect co-arise (samutpada) and everything is a result of multiple causes and conditions... In the sutras, this image is given: "Three cut reeds can stand only by leaning on one another. If you take one away, the other two will fall." For a table to exist, we need wood, a carpenter, time, skillfulness, and many other causes. And each of these causes needs other causes to be. The wood needs the forest, the sunshine, the rain, and so on. The carpenter needs his parents, breakfast, fresh air, and so on. And each of those things, in turn, has to be brought about by other causes and conditions. If we continue to look in this way, we'll see that nothing has been left out. Everything in the cosmos has come together to bring us this table. Looking deeply at the sunshine, the leaves of the tree, and the clouds, we can see the table. The one can be seen in the all, and the all can be seen in the one. One cause is never enough to bring about an effect. A cause must, at the same time, be an effect, and every effect must also be the cause of something else. Cause and effect inter-are. The idea of first and only cause, something that does not itself need a cause, cannot be applied" These questions can't possibly be resolved in this discussion, IMO. The extreme metaphysician would see the Dao as latent in all, the purpose and the thought behind everything. The metaphysician would realize that all we see as physical reality is no more than thought. He would know that the reason we see phenomena, like the lamp here on my table, is because time and space are all illusion, and that everything we see is because of linear thinking, which is the expanded part of the bellows action of the Dao. The lamp remains here because it is the Idea which lives on, regardless of time or space. Perhaps this is why objects keep their form. Now, when we break it down into how it is physically made, yes - it does require the parents, the making of the metal, the electrical connections; and those were all formed over a period of time. But take time and space away? The idea remains. Perhaps the concept of linear time really kicked in when the silly monkeys started to talk. Then linear time was laid out, one word and one thought at a time. The expansion of the bellows really kicked into gear. There may be something to that. Look at how fast we are moving now. We are speaking to each other across the world in an instant. Thought is broadcast at the speed of light, and broadcast to everyone worldwide simultaneously - assuming we're all on the same website at the same moment. I wonder what would happen if that were actually the case.

Thanks, Soaring Crane!

LOL. Well, that was a breath of fresh air....

Can't be done.

This is so good. Once the chemicalization has taken place, life becomes a gradual tendency toward the light, in all things. There are no decisions to be made any more, not really. The condition of our own inner self becomes the most important thing of all, everything else pales next to that. The highest road is intuitively shown and intentionally taken.....

The subjective experience of 'reality' cannot be explained to anyone who has not had the inner gulps of realization. This is called self-realization, and it's every bit as real as that which is learned in our brains from outward input. Actually, in my experience, I do believe it's realer. Yes, Marbles, it is over my head, the head-learnin' part. My education, if I have any at all, is almost entirely experiential, the inner gulps of awareness, which has been as a result of my path in life. It is largely due to the 'prodigal son' experience that my life has been, combined with the serendipitous readings of literature by masters of all persuasions. This has resulted in a triangulation of knowledge. I know it was my question, but please don't roll your eyes if I can't quite keep up with your answers. I am trying.

You guys are SO over my head. But I wonder about your use of the term reality. The context you're using it seems to cover the realm of the physical. When you get into heady readings and understanding of the Nature of Thought, there are many who would argue that Thought is the reality, not matter. That matter in and of itself has no intelligence, that matter only has intelligence when inhabited by Thought or Mind. And that Love was the vehicle for all this, the initial cause; the One before the Two. The Two were created asexually (I imagine cell division to see this), the Three by copulation (or active energy manifesting the physical). Dreams, as I see it, are grounded in the familiar to get a point across to us so that we can see the metaphor. My dreams are often predictive or assist to See something that I have been cogitating, like in a healing setting - where I'm trying to triangulate what about a person's malady is pertinent to what is going on in their life; to assist to find the lowest common denominator between the supposed malady and the physical manifestations of what's going on in the body; whether it be cancer, or in my most recent case, quadriplegia. There is a connection there, a real connection, that can be sent in another direction, or 'the light is bent' at the lowest common denominator. These insights (while dreaming) stem from an intuition that is unexplainable; I wouldn't begin to write them off as merely a consequence of the reality of matter. There is creation in these dreams, as we are the creator. It is within us to manifest, as in the beginning. We are the Thinker, as Rodin well knew. There must be a canal of connection between the original thought or genesis, and the physical connection or matter. My guess is that it has something to do with the emanation of the Love phenomena, in some way, as the Void manifested matter. Guess I just need to ask the Void what it was thinking about, lol.

SC - does this merge with what we were talking about before, the singing bowls?

Perhaps it's avoidance of self.

I have a couple questions, 9th, you brilliant thing, you. From what I'm reading of what you said, I get the impression that the person going into the black hole would age at a faster rate? Or am I reading this backward? Is this exactly opposite of the 'traveling out in space and coming back younger than the one still here on earth?' Is it exactly opposite (wherein the blackhole would make one age faster, while going out in space would make one age slower)? Or am I just all boggled up? My second question refers to your second paragraph, where you said "....AND the mass of the invisible star is considerably greater than 3 to 5 solar masses" Does this mean that all solar masses are of the same size, by the very nature of it being a solar mass? Are suns constant in size, or are some larger than others? Are not the cores different in size, meaning varying circumferences of the whole?

This is powerful stuff. The most important mantra that I use when in an iffy situation is "I don't care how you feel about me, I'm going to love you anyway." It doesn't get any more powerful than that. 360 degrees of choice. That is power, to choose to love even when we perceive that others don't like us for some reason. (Actually, all they're seeing in me is a mirror of what is bothering them inside themselves.) To carry that mantra around is to always be prepared, to always know what to do, to never worry about your response. It will always be the response of love, the high path. The kind path, even when someone is dissing us. Smile, find the humor in the situation, and realize that that person too is the Dao, is the Absolute because they too have the little black spots of awareness in the center of their eyes. But....this does take ego work, learning to tame it. And when 9th said above "The modern human is not more advanced than animals", I think this is almost an understatement. Sometimes I think our animals, our loyal companions, are more advanced than humans. They seem to have the capacity for total unconditional love, those that are conditioned in that way. How many of us can say that? Malikshreds said: Wanna explore thoughts? Look for the spot before a thought appears. And contemplate that. It's like seeing where a child comes from. You look for its parents. This would be a good method for searching out one's own inner dynamics, to see where a thought originates, to look at our own motivation. To actually see the part we play in the circumstances we are manifesting, and to take responsibility for the manifestation. We are not Victims. We just think we are. We are actually attracting to ourselves exactly what we need - usually we get the same lesson over and over until we get the idea. It's like attracting the same type of man or woman over and over again, which is what we do. Even if we think 'this time this person is different than all the rest," sooner or later we realize that their inner dynamics entangle with our own in a very specific way, a sort of 'lock and key' entanglement, even if in the beginning they appeared to be exactly the opposite. Sooner or later the other side of the coin shows. The only way to stop this dynamic is to look within, explore our thoughts and tendencies and reactions, and to reconfigure our inner self. We must be ruthless in this reconfiguration or no progress will be made. After all, this dynamic has probably been in play since early childhood, most likely as a response to one parent or the other (or some other who has heavily influenced our formative years when the template was cut).

I think that choices are learned from past experience. It is done with the head, with our rational mind. It often stems from pain, love, learned behavior and the false labeling of Good or Bad. It's taught to us by our parents, our teachers, our peer group, our fear of what others will think. (If we don't do something, for example, our friends will think us stupid or foolish) Of course nobody wants to admit that they are swayed one iota by the approval or disapproval of others, but I think the person who says that hasn't dug down too deeply. But the Sage? He would probably not make a choice at all and watch it all play out. The Sage would go with the flow, foresee problems before they arise and make the minor tweak necessary to avoid the problem altogether. He would Let It Be, because the Sage would know that the whole purpose of this exercise we call Life is merely a training ground for ultimate reunification with the One, the reversion of the Dao. As to desire, if one is tending toward enlightenment, they would have learned over many years that desiring things is a pain in the butt, and would have learned to be satisfied with things as they Are, not as we think things Should Be. They wouldn't worry about the amount of Stuck Energy they had; they would merely do their work and let the chips fall as they may, knowing with full faith that the Dao will always have organized things perfectly if left alone. The higher attitude will always manifest higher results, and the Sage would have learned this over the years.