manitou

I think that truth isn't relative when we finally get to the Oneness of everything. It is relative while we are in the illusion of separateness.

(From ZYD's post #49 above) "But the Mason who hath the ROYAL SECRET can also with him argue, from beholding its love of wisdom, its tendency toward association with what is divine and immortal, its larger aspirations, its struggles, though they may have ended in defeat, with the impediments and enthrallments of the senses and the passions, that when it shall have been rescued from the material environments that now prove too strong for it, and be freed from the deforming and disfiguring accretions that here adhere to it, it will again be seen in its true nature, and by degrees ascend the mystic ladder of the Spheres, to its first home and place of origin." To me, what this is saying (of Pike paraphrasing what Plato was getting at) is that this earthly journey is one that we must make, struggling with senses and passions (illusions, in the end). We are enthralled with the impediments (of passions and senses); but at some point, to become Self Realized as the One that we are, our journey must be 'rescued' from the material environment. It is a journey of elimination. Elimination of the clumped aggregate impediments that were started as a small snowball in our youth - and yet getting larger as the snowball rolls down the hill, often resulting in the huge snowball smashing into a tree at the bottom. This is the case with those that follow an addiction down the path, until they hit their bottom and have nowhere to go. (I actually feel fortunate now to have been an alcoholic!) I think every life is given an opportunity, probably many opportunities, to 'hit their bottom' as to reliance on the senses or passions. Have any of the passions or senses proven to provide happiness or bliss for any length of time? That would infer that Donald Trump is by nature a much happier person than you are (assuming you aren't in his wealth bracket)....but my guess is that that probably isn't the truth. My guess is that his passion is in the making and accumulating of stuck energy. I can do that with dirt out in my back yard, but it does nothing other than gratify my ego that I've got an awful lot of dirt in a pile in my back yard. Same with money, I'm thinking. "Where a man's treasure lies is where you'll find his heart", as someone great once said. My guess is that the Royal Secret is the knowledge of Who We Really Are. The Royal Secret is the finding of the pony at the bottom of the manure pile, once the inner work has been done. How do we do the inner work? Lots of different ways. We can look for our ego in everything, for starters. Find out how we're actually cutting an edge for ourselves in everything we say and do. How we fail to love our brothers as ourselves and, again, cut an edge for ourselves. How we judge, and how it makes us feel more elevated than the one we're judging at the time we're doing the judging. It's the words of The Nazarene, when he said "Know Thyself" - it's my guess that this is what he was talking about. I'll bet the lost years between when he was about 12 and when he reappeared in his 30's were about him getting to Know Himself by the very process, or something similar, we're talking about here.

Traveler quoted: "The ultimate purpose of learning the 441 cube matrix system is to learn how to operate the Holomind Perceiver, a new sense organ located in the corpus callosum. The Holomind Perceiver facilitates the integration of time, space and mind as the principle of radialized synchronization informing the totality of our being. Then we can begin to learn the language of telepathy or the language of Number." (http://www.lawoftime...chronotron.html This is quite interesting, I didn't know anything about this before. It would appear to be the function which produces the Akashic Records, the place where all thoughts are recorded in a non-linear dimension and accessible by those with a 3rd eye. I don't think all third eyes are the same - some are able to delve into the Seeing in one fashion, of seeing all things at once. Some are able to delve into the Seeing by identifying what is to come in the 'future' because they are capable of eliminating past and present and ending up with future vision. Some can See and put it to work by seeing the inner emotional dynamics of another and get to the bottom of their ailment, reversing the ailment with the truth of their soul dynamics. These are the healing dynamics that Science of Mind healing, or the healing of a Christian Science practitioner can tap into. That crop circle is of another intelligence. No way some old farmer came out with a board in the middle of the night and cooked that one up! Getting onto the external link Traveler posted (lawoftime, noted above) there is discussion of the 'dog star', Sirius A and B as being the binary. How Dao! From the One comes the Two; however this is done asexually, perhaps analogous with cell division. The interesting thing is that Sirius, the dog star, was so very important to the ancients - the Egyptians, the Ethiopians, the Assyrians, etc - because the 'dog star' was so named because it heralded the onset of longer days, when crops could be planted. As a dog barking when a visitor arrived. They revered Sirius and it was important in the beginning understandings of the cycles of the stars and planets, the zodiacal signs. Mankind at that point was very fearful when the days would get shorter. Of course they weren't aware that it was this planet that was doing the revolution; instead, they surmised that the Sun and the Moon were acting of their own accord, as if they were living beings doing it by choice. They were always relieved to see the days lengthen once again after a bleak winter. They were afraid of winter, of darkness, of the night. This phenomenon explains many of the celebrations 3 days after the winter solstice - Christmas, for example; both Christ's birthday and the birthday of the Buddha being on the 25th of December, theoretically. They all stem from the Ancient's relief at the sun's return.

That makes perfect sense when we see the sun as the metaphoric Source of the macrocosm. When we look at the microcosm of ourselves, the Corpus Callosum would be metaphorically the same as the sun in the macrocosm. Mind. The Source. The connector of the right and left brain, also maybe analogous to the yin yang interweve between light and darkness. Perhaps the left brain is a form of darkness, of illusion, until the right brain, the innate intuition, is accessed. Traveler said: Experience is the best teacher. Stand in the center of your head and look up. What do you see? There is no right or wrong answer to that question. What is seen there shifts as you reach deeper and deeper levels of consciousness in meditation. I had an odd thing happen yesterday morning when I woke up. I woke up to a doorbell, ding-dong Avon type (which we don't have) into a lucid dream. I was looking up overhead into the source of a light that were beautiful chakra colors; light pink, lavender, white - all furling and moving around each other. Funny you should mention looking up into your head! Isn't synchronicity something?

The only difference I can see between anarchy and the loss of the Dao, is that loss of the Dao would be the loss of the original manifestation of man, where man would inherently know to love his brother as himself. There would be no reason for rules, people would take the interests of others as seriously as they take their own. Anarchy seems to have an undertone of anger and rebellion, as though stemming from a previous system that had broken down. Ultimately there would have to be another system put in place, or society in general would be destroyed. It's almost like looking at the glass of water as either half empty or half full. Wow. As to the last two posts by Traveler and ZYD, I need to chew on those for a while...

Re-noting the Plato quote from post #25, does anyone have any ideas as to what the enigmatic ROYAL SECRET is? We see the Soul, Plato said, as men see the statue of Glaucus, recovered from the sea wherein it had lain many years - which viewing, it was not easy, if possible, to discern what was its original nature, its limbs having been partly broken and partly worn and by defacement changed, by the action of the waves, and shells, weeds, and pebbles adhering to it, so that it more resemble some strange monster than that which it was when it left its Divine Source. Even so, he said, we see the Soul, deformed by innumerable things that have done it harm, have mutilated and defaced it. But the Mason who hath the ROYAL SECRET can also with him argue, from beholding its love of wisdom, its tendency toward association with what is divine and immortal, its larger aspirations, its struggles, though they may have ended in defeat, with the impediments and enthrallments of the senses and the passions, that when it shall have been rescued from the material environments that now prove too strong for it, and be freed from the deforming and disfiguring accretions that here adhere to it, it will again be seen in its true nature, and by degrees ascend the mystic ladder of the Spheres, to its first home and place of origin."

Only a philosopher / one who knows how to rule by not-ruling, can work the wu-wei needed at the level of the State. He is of necessity a philosopher, and IMO that's only the beginning; that much more than the entry level of philosophy is needed, it is also inner wisdom. I love the part in the DDJ where it speaks of 'when rules are needed, the Dao is lost', each translation being different of course but the idea remains the same.

What a beautiful distinction this is between the observation and the choice of action. I am in full agreement; there is quite a skill involved in how to respond to the unharmonious one. And still that is best guided by Love. Love of our brother as our self. Even if the most loving thing we are capable of doing is to 'not do something', like stopping a visceral reaction of flipping off someone who just cut us off in traffic. The operative thing, in my opinion, is to see us all as tentacles of the same octopus. To see the Void, God, Dao in the black spots of the eyes of every man and animal that walks the planet. Who's to hate? I suppose we will always have to live with the visceral reaction, I'm not sure this goes away. Maybe it does, I don't know. Mine is pretty well controlled, and when I am capable of the rare Christ consciousness, it is not an issue at all. But riding the ox - well, that involves much balance and trying to stay on top of myself at all times. It just gets easier throughout the years and after much inner digging to tame the ego and get down to clarity.

When I first read Someone Else's first post (and your subsequent post) I wrongly assumed that he was putting Plato down. In his later post he clarified that for me, when he spoke of teaching the rich and ruling class to be better leaders. My apologies for any offense this may have caused. My bad.

Zhong - please take the time to write more later. It is most important that your beautiful mind insert your elevated thoughts into this virtual universe we call the Internet. To offset the porno and baser things. We'd be honored if you'd do it here. I do have a question for you, relating to one of the quotes in your signature lines: Confucius writes: "Only the man of virtue knows whom to love and whom to hate". Was Confucius correct in assuming that it is of value to hate anyone?

What is wealth or money other than stuck energy? If stuck energy remains piled in your back yard because your father had lots of stuck energy, is it wrong? Perhaps the wisdom lies in recognizing physical wealth as the stuck energy as it is, and then using it wisely to alleviate the pains of the least of our brothers. But the operative word is wisely, not ostentatiously so others can see us as a type of savior throwing money around. I remember a book called The Magnificent Obsession I read as a child (can't remember the author) where he was obsessed with anonymously supplying money where it was needed. Yes, the black woman I describe is very brave indeed. She is graceful, beautiful, and she quietly Shines. She has taken on the mantle of trying to equalizing things for many years. Quietly, but no doubt with much effect when she is thrown into the mix. I will team up with her

This is the is the essence of Christian Science healing as well. The practitioners, however, still need to use the I Am consciousness of Jesus, rather than getting down to their own I Am consciousness. My guess is that if the practitioners worked on themselves and their own ego blockage a bit more, they wouldn't need the proxy.

Agreed. My suggestion is that if you disagree with some of Plato's words that we are discussing here, that you argue your position as to why his words are wrong in your estimation, rather than discarding him because you perceive his motivation as wrong. No offense intended, I just think he came across with some seriously good stuff. As you know, even enlightened words can come out of what you may consider to be unenlightened individuals. I am currently about to join a service organization here in town. It is filled to the brim with Caucasian women who have an entitled mindset; old money left over from the days when this town was the pottery capital of the U.S., if not the world. My personal 'cause' is to be part of the solution in this town, not part of the problem. There is a huge disparity between black and white here; most black people live down on East End, dirt poor, and they go to the same Baptist Church. I've been attending that Baptist church to get to know and love the black members of our community. A black woman invited me to the next club meeting (she is the only black member of the club and she certainly 'feels' the differentiation between herself and the entitled white ladies / old money ladies in the club). I admire her courage for even going to the meetings. She has asked me to join, to go to a meeting next month with her. I will do so. I will intentionally throw myself into the lion's mouth, the den of the Entitled, just as Plato may have intended to do. I don't think the old schoolers are to blame for their sense of entitlement. It's the template they were given at birth; their parents were given it at birth, and so were their parents. And ad infinitum. But I can get in there and mix it up with my black lady friend from church and respond lovingly but with intent to slowly bring around the mindsets of the entitled old ladies there. One day at a time, one situation that presents itself to me at a time. Perhaps this was Plato's mindset as well, and he can't be blamed for the circumstances into which he was born. I was born into the same ugly mindset of entitlement; but at some point as we get to know ourselves better we learn to love our brother as ourselves; regardless of what situation they were born into or from where in the world they come. We are all One. P.S. I belong to your 'Overthinkers Anonymous' as well

* * * * * * * * * * * * * NEW PLATO QUOTE * * * * * * * * Last night I found a wonderful paragraph quoting Plato, followed up by discussion of his quote. It is written by Albert Pike, author of Morals and Dogma (of the 33 degrees of the Scottish Rites of Freemasonry). These paragraphs are within the lengthy chapter in the 32nd degree, page 858. Please feel free, anybody, to throw in Plato quotes that you find anytime you wish! This discussion could go on for a while - * * * * * * * * * We see the Soul, Plato said, as men see the statue of Glaucus, recovered from the sea wherein it had lain many years - which viewing, it was not easy, if possible, to discern what was its original nature, its limbs having been partly broken and partly worn and by defacement changed, by the action of the waves, and shells, weeds, and pebbles adhering to it, so that it more resemble some strange monster than that which it was when it left its Divine Source. Even so, he said, we see the Soul, deformed by innumerable things that have done it harm, have mutilated and defaced it. But the Mason who hath the ROYAL SECRET can also with him argue, from beholding its love of wisdom, its tendency toward association with what is divine and immortal, its larger aspirations, its struggles, though they may have ended in defeat, with the impediments and enthrallments of the senses and the passions, that when it shall have been rescued from the material environments that now prove too strong for it, and be freed from the deforming and disfiguring accretions that here adhere to it, it will again be seen in its true nature, and by degrees ascend the mystic ladder of the Spheres, to its first home and place of origin." (My thought: I'm thinking that this is ultimately a metaphor for that which lives hidden within all of us, hopefully to be uncovered and manifested in this lifetime)

Clarified wonderfully, Traveler. Got it now. I would offer one word of 'correction'. When you say 'we know what we feel like but cannot comprehend what the enlightened ones are feeling.' You would know. You. The Traveler. You would feel love and non-judgment when acting from the source of your flame. The rest of the time, you are riding your ox.

Rather than throwing a wet blanket on Plato, wouldn't it be more fun to just participate in the discussion?

I'm missing something here, Traveler. There is kundalini flame, and it is felt. I don't understand what you mean when you say others can't decide what the flame is feeling. Is the flame analogous to the awake one? Or is the flame the source of the light in the sense that clarity involves the removal of obstruction within for the flame to shine?

I think this is perfect. And I would go one step further and remove the word 'sometimes'. The operative principle in discovering one's self is Elimination, IMO.

My guess is that the opponent wasn't able to see Plato's cupness and tableness because the opponent was unable to find his own cupness and tableness. (having a little trouble with the Reply function on my twitterbox). I believe that the manifestation of the horse (what us commoners would call the real horse) is still not the real horse. The shadow of the horse is what we see, according to the cave analogy. The person seeing the horse on the screen is us, and we are a clump of condensed energy. The Real Horse is contained within the metaphor of the sun, where the idea exists and is emitted. Our thought, or Its thought is manifested and filtered through our tiny brains. It does indeed manifest its own boundaries, even as to our own shape and conditions. And things that 'happen to us' - we are the creator, the thinker, always. Your comment about grouping arbitrarily strikes me. Parallel universes. No two of us see the world in the same way at the same time. If you and I are sitting next to each other in a room and each one of us snaps a photo of the rest of the room in front of us, and then measure the dimensions of the walls within the photo - your walls in your photo will be seen at a slightly different angle; the measurements of the walls in the photo will be minutely different. We all live in parallel universes. If we are sitting across the table in a restaurant talking to each other, our experiences are totally different because our visual plane is exactly opposite; two different experiences will be had. I like your metaphor of the chair in the dark room. What is the similarity of the experience? Probably not the location on our toes where we stubbed them. Not the position of the chair after we bumped into it. The similarity of the experience is in our feeling about the experience. Neither of us would immediately laugh. We would both feel the momentary cringe of the pain and the flush of the feeling of "Damn!" going through our bodies. Yes, we are One. We are part of the It, and it is our sentient reactions that bind us.

Chi is energy. Unmanifested chi is the void, the Dao. This is exactly where Plato's mind was. Stosh, what I meant by the 97% comment was that if 97% of the people are in agreement on something, chances are that it's wrong. Seems like the truth lies in the minute quantity. How many enlightened people do you know? The enlightened ones will see from the perspective of the void, which is what Zuangzi said in Dawei's comment. Close the ears and the mind. Stop all thought and find clarity, find the void. Close the ears and don't form an opinion based on the opinions of others. Go to your own inner clarity, once found, to See. All phenomena is illusion, that Plato knew. Traveler and I were recently on an astounding thread on Ch. 12 of the Hua Hu Ching; he posted Plato's metaphor of The Cave. I tried to paste it here but was unable; here's the link to the Cave metaphor in the thread. He speaks of Socrates but it was written by Plato, his student. See Plato's Allegory of the Cave.

A body that knows not the Self Cannot know the One. When one falls into the 97% agreement with others category, The One is hidden indeed.

Funny thing, thoughts; more tangible than matter, they travel without end in a quantum wave Weaving the fabric of Space and Time.

How do we come to know things as they really are? Is it by first knowing ourselves as we really are?

You're right, Marbles. It was only a dream. Matter is the Thing with the intelligence, after all.

I had a dream last night that the universe was a great wooden helix that worked like clockwork; one great machine with wooden sticks of various sizes connecting all the stars with the sun, the earth, the planets; Rotating in predictable and cyclical patterns. Carved upon the wooden sticks were us, part and parcel of the wood.