manitou

Hi ATMA - nice subject! When you refer to a superior mindset when you are in your blissful and aware state, this is understandable. Certainly it is superior to just the normal push-and-grab existence that most men engage in from day to day. But the idea of 'superior' also can have a bit of ego in it. For those who have done inner work for many years, it's very possible to keep the mindset 'out there'. When we realize who we really are, at our essence, we realize that the essence we get down to by doing the inner work and going through personality is the very thing that we become capable of recognizing in others, no matter how hateful they are being. Maybe it's as simple as 'once you have the shine, you can see the shine'. Encephalon will be starting a thread on the 12 steps and Buddhism, up in the Buddhism area. I'm very anxious to engage in this thread and watch the dynamics come together. We can all benefit from inner work, like....what are my motivations? What part did I play in this screwed-up situation? Why must I always push the blame on others? Why can't I feel any love for myself? (other than when I'm meditating). Are my actions selfish or selfless? It's a perfect framework in which to remove the negative from within ourselves so the shine can appear. The inner work is what turns the words of any of the world's tomes into a living thing. The words are no longer read as something outside of ourselves; we realize that we are indeed the Sage or the Buddha - only we have to do a little work to find him within.

I agree with you, Scott re: the ecumenical approach. I think what I was trying to say is that Buddhism and 12 steps would be a wonderful apex and direction, as would Taoism and 12 steps, etc. The 12 steps will take us in to ourselves. The Buddhist structure would be a nice override. I look forward to your thread! I can sure use a tune-up.

I'm so left brained on the natch that lucid dreaming is nearly impossible for me - I've tried over and over for years, since I first started Castaneda maybe 8 years ago. First of all, I've discovered that I'm just not capable of doing it right before I go to sleep. I've tried and tried, I've looked for my hands in my dreams, just like Castaneda. I've not been able to get it. Except recently, I've discovered that it also happens in the morning! I've recently been able to catch myself before opening my eyes in the morning, and I catch myself and make myself stay right there. I find that if I crack open my eyes just a tiny bit, just to let a tiny bit of light in, that the lucid dreams will start! I'm thrilled to have discovered this. I have to tell you what I lucid dreamed this morning, only for a few seconds. It's like my face was looking down at the ground, about 2 feet away from it. The ground, as you can imagine, was as real as can be, since this was a lucid dream. I was moving along the ground, almost floating, when suddenly I went over a cliff which appeared to be about 1000 feet down. It was like in a cartoon for a moment, I stayed up in the air just like the Roadrunner before he looks down. Then it became like a slow motion bungee jump down to the trees and rocks below, which I could see getting closer and closer. Then I 'willed' myself to come back up on the bungee cord. The funny thing is, there wasn't a drop of fear attached to the huge bungee jump. In my particular left brain case, this is real progress! Castaneda's chore was to learn to control and investigate these dreams at will, taking off from one lucid dream-bubble to another, to another; and then coming back on the same path. I would love to do the same.

I think that's a great idea, Scott. I'd be happy to participate, since I too have walked the 12 step path for 30 years. And I really don't think it matters whether it's Buddhism & the 12 steps, or Taoism and the 12 steps, or Shamanism and the 12 steps. But the 12 steps are a kick-butt template for going within, fast and dirty. My recommendation on the first step would be to substitute "Life" for "Alcohol" as far as being powerless. Unless of course someone has some habit they'd like to rid themselves of in the process; overeating, booze, drugs, or co-dependent behavior with their spouse. Count me in, even if it's just you and me....

Yamacharaka's comments on precept 14: "Desire Peace Fervently". "But that peace is the peace which comes from within, and which you may enjoy even though you be in the midst of the battle of life - though you be commander-in-chief of the worldly army, or its humblest soldier (all one, at the last). This peace of the awakened and conscious soul is indeed "that sacred peace which nothing can disturb, and in which the soul grows as does the holy flower upon the still lagoons." This peace comes only to one who has awakened to the consciousness of his real spiritual existence. this state once attained enables a man to set aside a part of his nature into which he may retire when the troubles and strife of the outer life disturb him, and which immediately surrounds him with a peace "that passeth understanding," because it is beyond the realms of the understanding of the intellect. (emphasis mine) Such a sanctuary of the soul is a "haven of rest," for the troubled mind, and in which it may seek shelter from the storms which are howling without. When one becomes conscious of what he really is, and is able to see the world of illusions for what they are, he finds this place of peace...."

I kind of agree with you here. I think Ramacharaka could have done a better job of emphasizing that desiring the power of the spirit must not be for purposes of aggrandizing personal stature; rather, just to be open to it and 'let' it come. It will, if we keep our judgments and blockages to a minimum.

These precepts number 20 - I forgot to mention earlier. Here's precepts 13 through 16: 13. Desire power ardently 14. Desire peace fervently. 15. Desire possession above all. 16. But those possessions must belong to the pure soul only, and be possessed therefore by all pure souls equally, and thus be the especial property of the whole only when united. Hunger for such possessions as can be held by the pure soul, that you may accumulate wealth for that united spirit of life which is your only true self. The peace you shall desire is that sacred peace which nothing can disturb, and in which the soul grows as does the holy flower upon the still lagoons. And that power which the disciple shall covet is that which shall make him appear as nothing in the eyes of men. Ramacharaka's comment on the 13th precept is this: "Here is another example of the relative and the absolute. "Desire power ardently". And yet power, selfish power, is the greatest curse of the man who possess it. The power of the Spirit, which is "the power which the disciples shall covet," may indeed make him "appear as nothing in the eyes of men" who are striving after material power. For it is the conscious power of which the average man knows nothing - of which he is unable to form a mental image. And he is very apt to regard as a fool the man who possesses it, or who is reaching out for it. The power which is applied to unselfish uses is incomprehensible to the average man who seeks for worldly power - and yet that worldly power, and all that it is capable of accomplishing, will crumble before the flame of time, as a sheet of tissue before the match, and will be in ashes in the twinkling of an eye, while the real power of spiritual attainment grows stronger and mightier as the ages roll by. The one is the substance - the other the shadow - and yet the world reverses their position because of its imperfect vision...." (I'll add his commentary on precepts 14 thru 16 in a couple days. A big fat air kiss to anyone else who wants to comment on this precept.

Don't you feel that your initial post was a bit rude as well?

May I ask your age?

I love the part in the TTC where it says something like 'Between 'ugh' and 'aah' how much difference is there, really? This speaks to the relativity of all things, and the awareness that good to one will appear to be bad to another. Therefore, the non-judgmental mind is the most expedient and the one with the most clarity. Our natural tendency is to judge, most likely, because of our conditioning. But this is what Te is partially about - to understand those inner parts of ourselves that do the judging; to realize why it is that we are judging; to recognize that the judgment always has a fear at the very base of it; to overcome the fear and to recognize the spark of 'the divine' in each other and to address that part of the other person. Regardless of how furled and contorted their insides may be, which is causing them to act out in As to reacting when we are physically attacked by another, I agree that it doesn't have to be in the spirit of hatefulness. After all, the attacker is also Us. We must do what must be done to protect ourselves, but no doubt can be done with a smile on our faces, lol. If we look at it through the lens of Tao philosophy, it is the reluctant general who kills only as a last resort and aligns himself with virtue that will be the most effective, if The Art of War is taken into consideration.

CT - I didn't watch the first vid but caught a little of the second one. What a wonderful metaphor, floating in a boat on a lake and then having another boat hit yours. The reaction in the first case, when it's believed that the other boat has a driver, is one of resentment and feeling like a target. When one realizes that the other boat had no driver and was merely drifting, suddenly that takes the mal-intent or negligence out of the act, and the lazy dreamer in the boat then laughs and takes it in stride. The way I interpret that, is that a master would always have the attitude of the second scenario, where no mal-intent is ascribed to anyone. If one believes we are all emanations of the very same thing, like the sun, then it is counter productive to ascribe bad intentions to anyone when we 'perceive' that we are the target. The Sage would realize that he's not a target at all, that these are the actions of a person who has not found their Essence yet and therefore acts in unaligned ways. Even if there was a driver of the other boat. Also, the Sage would have eliminated much of the need for the ego to rise within him and he would no doubt stay in front of the situation and see the situation for its part in the clockwork of life, and roll with it, injecting his natural kindness that has evolved within him. The Sage would probably find humor in the whole thing, even if there was a driver. It just Is...that's all. To act otherwise would be to lose energy foolishly. I honestly think the Sage probably doesn't get into spats often, unless he is choosing to walk around in a state of non-awareness. He sees everything as the same animal and thereby is a very patient one towards others, always. And not because he's trying to be 'good' or 'kind' or 'forgiving'. It would just be a natural part of the Sage's character to be that way, and that's what he would reflect.

That is wonderful. Going along with the micro part of this, think about the blue at the bottom of the flame when you strike a match - same thing. I think the golden person referred to in #7 has risen above all for two reasons. First, he no longer sees things as 'good' or 'evil' at all; it all just is a different phase of creation, happening now. Good and evil aren't separate, not really; as they are opposite sides of the same coin. The golden person has often traveled through the illusion of good and evil, has transcended it. Perhaps his path has taken him through it several times over. But in the end, the golden person realizes that there's nothing of value here to have at all, other than loving Awareness. Love is nice, obviously....but love is only a reflection of what the golden person already has in his heart. He 'feels' love for everything even if he doesn't have a specific one on which to lavish it. He is One in himself and has his provision cart with him, always. the Taoistic traveler.

Goodbye, Steve. You had the spirit of a quantum thinker. May your awareness continue to shine its light and manifest new ideas. Thank you, friend.

It's pictures like the one on the right that has me automatically donating $50 a month to Alice's Kitchen, which feeds these little guys. Some of us really do give a shit. But your point is well taken; each soul has every bit as much value as another, and there is something off-kilter about elevating any one soul when we're willing to let other souls starve. I'm with Lawrence O'Donnell (or O'Connell?) on this. He's a talking head on MSNBC that insists that we need a global solution. What I do applaud in Mr. Jobs is his creativity and tenacity. I've always had the creativity, but lacked the tenacity to implement my ideas.

Very nice. The same could be said of us; we're an intense transformer on a path to its source. Macro / micro.

I'm so very surprised at your response. No doubt I was less than clear with my writing. I don't imagine that you, Deci, of all people, are holding me at a distance. You more than most seem to exude the understanding of the One and interconnectedness of everything. Yes, I think that prior to the realization of the oneness, when we think we're actually separate from each other because it 'appears' that way. The point I was trying to make above was that it is erroneous thinking to hold ourselves separate from each other and assuming anyone's intentions. The source of emission of the energy, the Source, is always positive. It's our mangled inner 'tubes of awareness' that contort it, until we take the time to sort ourselves out. Sorry for the confusion, friend.

'I am because you are' also goes to the idea that we are all mirrors of each other. I see you and understand you because I see myself and understand myself. We recognize our own selves in each other; and then we sometimes make the mistake of projecting our negative attributes onto the intentions of another. We make assumptions about each others' behavior because that is how we would probably react in the same circumstance. Perhaps those are not their intentions at all. Perhaps that person really is coming from a perspective of unconditional love for all, only the person receiving the unconditional love can't understand it because he sees love and giving only through his own lens, the lens of love with lots of conditions and selfish needs. Agreed on Buddha and the precepts. For true unconditional love and a clear lens, the structure of Buddhism must be transcended, as must the structure of any Ism, whether it be Taoism, Shamanism, or 'Christianism'. As far out as we travel to try and make sense of our universe, as much as we try to pound it into different ism's that fit into our current thought patterns and societal makeup.....it turns out that we must go an equidistant path to the inner self. We must travel through our own selfishnesses, our own desires, our own ego, our own pomposities, our own arrogance, and our own actions and reactions to get to the pony at the bottom of the heap. It is when the pony is discovered that the view over the Isms can be had and seen for their interconnected nature, and the fact that all roads will lead to the top of the same hill. Even the dark ones, if followed to their conclusion. It seems to be the point when these two paths merge, the inner discovery of Self and the outer discovery of a desired mindset of understanding, that the true merger of the left and right brain occurs. The human being becomes integrated and as he was intended to be. All things are in balance, he understands the bodily needs and wants of man are just that - and that in reality that 'thing' inside us, that 'I-ness' never lets us down, not really. And that it has always been so and will always be so. To learn to trust and surrender to the complete Love of the universe is something that I see as desirable. I've gone through all the mistrust and cynical views that a career cop can possibly have. I've come to realize that my own cynicism and distrust that was engendered by so many years in law enforcement was something that I propagated by choice, always - once I got honest with myself. Today I choose to trust, it's as simple as that. I KNOW that the Underlying Spirit, the manitou, is a friendly force and a force to be trusted, always. It seems to be all about overcoming fear of just about everything.

Maybe the speed of thought is faster than the speed of light. Perhaps the Big Bang was the original thought gyrating at the speed of Thought - and after the Big Bang because of atmospheric interference light was slightly slowed down. Anything faster than the speed of light would be simultaneous appearance, I would think. Perhaps we're adjoining the concept of separate realities here, all happening on a slightly different dimension depending on vibrational intensity.

Your enlightened words just shot a beautiful arrow into my heart. Addressing your first paragraphs, I see a natural conflict between scientific proof and informed intuition. It's a push-pull. Science always looks backwards in a sense; not being willing to issue a proclamation which hasn't been repeatedly studied, measured, and predicted. But underlying the slow process of scientific proclamation lies the original intuition; the person who took a leap out of what was previously proven scientifically and followed up on this flash of intuition by a lot of hard work. It's all so very arbitrary, it seems. You're right, we can't all possibly interpret the same phenomena the same way from person to person; there are too many variables, as you point out. It's amazing how the concept of 'structure' figures into all of this, both scientific and philosophical. Within science, certainly one would benefit from following the structure of those who had gone before him, rather than reinventing the wheel with each new idea....and then taking off through the structure into the scientists' own destiny within the field. Is he a man who can take a leap of faith, or is he a man of the security of structure? The same goes philosophically, in my view. We have thousands of spiritual and religious 'structures' all over the world. I, like you, think the only wrong one is the one that says all the other ones are wrong. But to get to the point where the voice in your heart, the very thing which prods up upwards always toward the light, is actually listened to and understood, there must be a supreme effort for the individual to understand his own Self to the core. It is at the core that one receives an astounding revelation, if we make it that far. By this time, the path structure is pretty much discarded. One sees path choice as just that; path choice. I really like your metaphor of freeflowing energy getting stuck in the brain, thereby disallowing the free thought to circulate. I like to use a similar metaphor, the metaphor of us having a large circular glass lens in our chest. The lens is crystal clear at birth and becomes more opaque and discolored, even encrusted sometimes. Life is the thing that dirties our lens; the untruths we were told by well-intended people from the day of birth. Our assignment, 'should we decide to accept it', is to clean the lens in our spiritual and human being maturity. When the lens is clear once again, the true light does shine through and we are but an emanation of that which is true and part of all life. This light colors our every thought and deed when the Awareness is kept. (There's the rub, of course). Sometimes, when I find myself getting caught up in a particular situation (because I wasn't in Awareness of Who I really Am) it only takes but a few moments to realize that I allowed myself to get caught up. the thing that surprises me at that point is realizing how very physical it is to regain the Oneness composure. In my case, first come the muscles; and deeper and deeper levels of muscle relaxation. Then comes the mind, the stilling. And the breathing. To regain the mindset becomes a nearly instantaneous thing after we've been doing it for a while. It is then that the state of non-judgment and non-differentiation can come into play. When we realize at that moment that we are part of the golden weave and that it is all living and happening Now, then there is no room for anything but Love and understanding of every situation and person involved. Informer, thank you so much for taking the time to put your thoughts into the forum. Quite exquisite, friend.

We Are.

Not such a beginner, methinks. Can you speak a little more about your understanding, in any context, of souls in the sun? My feeling is that the eternal flame inside us is a chunk of the sun; do you ever wonder if the sun is an accumulation of the stream of consciousness, the gathering place of the disembodied souls both before and after us here? And perhaps our living sun is merely a break-off from the other suns, the other living accumulations, which are somehow part of an ever grander Whole. If not accumulations on this plane of existence, then perhaps the Tao's Intent is contained within the magical fire of the sun. Perhaps it is the 'fire of passion' which is the very evolutionary / creationary spirit that lies within all and causes it to spiral upward toward the sun. Man's cumulative spirituality and understanding of himself. Because at the base of himself, lo and behold, we find the eternal flame, if we are earnest in our search.

Nice. I know on my own inner journey, the light does keep receding. It has been so for many years. As you say, we are the light...we are the emanation of light from that which emits. It is this 'emitter-mind' that we cannot fathom, other than to realize we are acting out and interacting that which it wants to realize. Real-ize. The room where all paths meet, this forum.

Why can we never touch the flame? Great question, hotshot Let's figure it out. What is the flame, anyway? I knew an enlightened old man many years ago that told me there were souls in the sun. I don't know what the hell me meant by that. I have consternated over this particular thing he said for the past 30 years. It's always in the back of my mind as a possibility, though. After all, we are, at our base, made from stardust. We are the sun in a cooled and modified state. I guess maybe because we're an Emanation of the Sun, as the supreme metaphor. Or perhaps it's not really a metaphor at all! Perhaps what M.C. Collins meant was that we can never touch the sun WHILE IN BODY. Perhaps that's where the collective souls accumulate and mingle in the collective consciousness while out of body. Or not.

I can see how difficult it is to put this into words...to go backward in understanding. There is something inside me that goes backward too - I have used the metaphor of standing in a stream, facing downstream, yet walking backward upstream. That is just the description of the 'dynamic', not a discussion of exactly what it is that I seem to be tunneling backward into. But when we get to a certain point, it does involve a tunneling backward into ourselves. We find that when we lose our judgment of everything and everybody, our vision gains clarity and we become 'as children' in some ways. The Nazarene, whom I see as an enlightened one, talked about the quality that children have that we must return to if we want to become enlightened. (He talked much more about individual enlightenment in the Nag Hammadi Gospels, as opposed to the normally used tome.) Those were the ones Constantine didn't want folks to see...they do not focus on Jesus being 'the intermediary' through which everyone must go to avoid a fiery hellpit. Perhaps that viewpoint helped control the hordes, I don't know. But he does talk about returning to the child in our innocence; to weed those things out of our character which need to be weeded, to return to the Original Human Being. To me, there is a definite sense of 'going back to the beginning', or something like that. And it seems that is man's quest as well - going back to the beginning - trying to understand the Big Bang. This very question, who are we and where are we going?, seems to extend not only to the individual psyche but to the understanding of the universe as well. One being a microcosm, the other a macrocosm of the same thing. We are merely made of stardust, an offshoot of the sun, at our very basest physical component.