manitou

I love the expression "If we cast too hard, we scare the fish away".

Very nice distinction!

I do agree with this too. I think impeccability is what naturally develops as we internalize the concepts of the Tao; we see that there is an internal impeccability that is required for the vision we're seeking. My physical house is a lot cleaner than it used to be, and this has happened as a result of both intending to be more impeccable in my physical (and mental) surroundings, combined with a natural upward desire for more order in my world and thoughts. The order in my thoughts I'm talking about is not the order of a structure, but rather the self-discipline to try and not devolve into criticism, sarcasm, mean-spiritedness.

Slightly off subject, but I have a similar story - when I was about 6 or 7 I used to sit up on my aunt's second story wall on her porch. I just KNEW I could fly. I could 'remember' somewhere in my gut how to do it. I'd sit up there every time I visited, staring down, wondering if I could fly. (of course my aunt and parents had no idea I would do this). One day I tried to fly. I finally jumped. I landed on my feet, but paralyzed my legs and did the army crawl back around the back of the house and hid in the bushes for quite a while until feeling came back into my legs. I never told my folks, my dad would have killed me. But I have been trying to fly ever since - not in a physical way, but a metaphysical way. I think there's a whole lot to these childhood traumas that set the stage for the rest of our life....

This is my understanding as well. I woke up this morning visualizing a figure 8, one loop is the past, one loop is the future, the intersection is Now. It's all one.

It's odd how this sounds very much like the Tao concept of the bow bending when the string is pulled back....

I just had another thought. (My brain did finally explode, but I managed to reassemble it to a degree). Look at quantum physics. (My knowledge of quantum physics is limited to what I've read in Capra's Tao of Physics.) They've discovered that matter, when they observe it in its very smallest components, is both a particle and a wave of probability. The two properties apparently cannot be separated from each other, so I would guess that matter sits at the intersection or junction of time and space. A particle takes up space. It doesn't go anywhere. But a wave of probability would take up time going from point A to point B. Apparently they are inexhorably intertwined.

God, I love this question. I think about stuff like this all the time too, LOL. I think Einstein proved time is sort of an illusion. I now think of it in terms of a deck of cards. It 'seems' like life lays out one day at a time, like cards fanned out on green felt. But if you stack the cards up, the events pile up, one upon another. I think this is how prophesies or visions happen; somehow the fanned cards have been placed back in their pile, and the visionary can see all the events piled up on top of each other, not spread out in a fan. Life is but a dream, and we are the Dreamer. Collectively, apparently. This is the concept that a shaman would use as well. When we re-imprint something from the past, (which is apparently an illusion) that's why it works in the present. There really is no past or present. It's all Now. My brain is about to explode, so I'll stop now.

I've just gotten used to it. The electrical level is ridiculous, I have no filters at all for light or loud sound, and I can be jumpy as a cat. The ringing ears is horrible. It got even worse after I became spontaneously kundalini active after an auto accident. It just seems to be part of the whole package. It actually is very similar to the place of electrical surge and loud humming/ringing that happens during tantric sex. I just look at it as experiencing 'the collective of souls' daily, if this makes any sense. If I didn't look at it this way, I'd go crazy.

Could you go a little further into that?

I interpret this to mean that we can capture it by stillness.

It goes forth but does not return, It comes back but does not stay. This thing just can't be pinned down. I guess that's why there aren't a lot of Taoist churches! If Taoists tried to pin down the nature of the Tao, to preach it from a pulpit, would be to render it stale from that point on. It is a dynamic from moment to moment, it manifests within the moment of Now - not yesterday, not tomorrow. We have to get to a point of total inner silence and a type of openmindedness that accepts all options in order to access it. It seems to be the third eye. It grants a vision of sorts, an indescribable type of internal vision that Sees things in a slightly separate reality. It seems to See the dynamic behind the phenomena. Yet we can perceive an order to its accomplishments. We call it "the Way." The order to its accomplishments is the manifestation of wu-wei - things happen on their own; we can see the dynamic from 'above' it, somehow, once the dynamic of the Tao has been put into place. It also breeds the understanding that there is absolutely nothing to worry about within our situation or the world situation. It knows what it is doing, both in your life and in our collective lives. This is the strangeness and the dichotomy of how this works; the 'religious right' that lives here in Ohio are fearful of EVERYTHING. They're fearful of all things political that don't align with their views; they're certainly fearful of some sort of fiery hell that they don't want to land in; they're fearful of ideas that cross theirs; their fearful of gay people because they're afraid their children will catch it by osmosis or that someone will talk their kids into being gay; they're fearful of different skin colors, to be sure. They're fearful their taxes will go up, and fearful they'll lose some Medicare benefits. Just fear everywhere. And these are the folks who holler loudest about God. I just can't understand why they can't come up with a concept that actually WORKS in their lives; a concept of an Intelligent God who actually knows what's going on, and has things in hand. But they don't; it's all the old biblical stuff that promotes one fear after another. There is no such disconnect with the Tao. It's everywhere, it's everything, and it Knows. It is intelligence, and we can absolutely tap into that intelligence if we just do a little bit of internal housecleaning and train our mind to become an 'excellent mind', as it says in chapter 5.

This is an incredible bit of wisdom, to my way of thinking. Learning to relinquish our naive ideas of what love 'should' be like. I've been with my other half for 28 years. We've been married to each other twice, been divorced from each other twice, and we're still together. There was just something there we couldn't quite walk away from. As I see it now, the thing that held us together was often a negative dynamic, a fear of being alone, a fear of nobody ever finding me attractive again. At the time I would have called it 'love', but I see better now. At some point in this 28 year relationship we finally grew up. And it wasn't all that long ago. I've come to the awareness that love is a Decision - it's not something that comes and goes at will. Sure, there are times when I like him better than other times - depending on what my mood is or what his mood is. But one day I realized that I was always looking at the grass on the other side of the fence; all my life I've done this. Always having one foot ready to run if either something better came along, or if things didn't work out. About a year ago (27 years into this grand experiment) I finally decided to Want What I Have. Not to wait until I felt the feelings first, just to make the decision to choose this path. He sort of did the same thing, we've subsequently talked about it. I've made a conscious decision to keep both feet here where I am, in this relationship with him, love him to the best of my ability; also, to love my house more, love my yard more. And it wasn't because I felt the feelings first. It was just a decision on my part, perhaps more mature than my previous way of thinking. and has it made a difference! No doubt this sounds ridiculous to most old married folks because they would have made this decision ages ago, perhaps the day of their wedding. But in our case, both being recovering alkies, neither one of us are wrapped very tightly, and my whole life has been a series of impulses with very little discipline. Our previous marriages to each other were impulses with very little discipline. The way I see it now, it has something to do with a greater capacity for gratitude; that's the only thing I can see that's changed within me. The further I travel the path into self, the clearer things get. As for being a cowboy? (Sigh) It's a bit of a compromise at this time. We live out in the farm country of Ohio - plenty of horses here, although I don't own any at this time. It's not the cool little ranch I'd love to have down in New Mexico or Arizona (except for that damn Arizona governor); but it's okay. There will be a ranch in the future. There will. and perhaps a bit of a horse rescue or something. That's a bit down the road financially, but it's coming. And I do still have my hat, my saddle, my bridle.

Hi Otis, After a lot of years of thinking about this, and going through a self-realization process of my own, it occurs to me that life is all One. If life is all One, then there is no differentiation. If there is no differentiation, then the Intelligence is One. and aren't we the most logical place for it to dwell? There certainly has to be an Intelligence; I don't think haphazard produced this. To believe in the same kind of God I was brought up with, the Santa Claus god, this doesn't make any sense to me at all. Someone living 'out there', someone who hears individual prayers of individual people - you know the mindset. When someone says they believe in God, I equate that to believing in Santa. I have learned through my own inner voice that this is the same inner voice that you have inside you. That everyone has inside them, whether they can hear it or not. Even Gaddhafi. In order to hear the voice of the intelligence, we must go through the self-realization process, which is nothing more than finding out who Otis (or, in Gaddhafi's case, Gaddhafi) really is. We are the spear of the intelligence on this particular plane. Who knows how many other myriad planes there are? But on this one at least, we are the combined voice of the Intelligence. It manifests everything from the inner to the outer. It dwells within, manifests to the outside. Even before man evolved, it was manifested as the Tao (or whatever you want to call it) through all sorts of life; man is just the most recent manifestation. I love the concept of the Tao because it is so unlimited and best fits with the 'god is everything' mindset. Things at this point have to be communicated in word pictures. And analogy is a most useful tool. Picture the earth; crust and mantle on the outside, molten lava on the inside. Picture man, the flame of the Intelligence on the inside, our skin on the outside. Both things, both the flame in man and the fire within the earth, are a piece of the sun. The manifestations were originally fueled by the sun at the very beginning, no? It is like the blueprint of the oak tree being contained within the acorn. It is the same with us; the god blueprint is inside us; our personality and our acquired traits are the things that warp the presence; in its original nature, it is pure. It sits there, waiting for you to find It. It seems to me that the Intelligence has been tending toward Oneness since the day it started. It has wanted to experience self, and personally, I think that's all it wants to do. We are now approaching Oneness in our voice; look at the world around us, what's happening. The trend is now for all of man to dictate how he is ruled; our voices now merge together as One on the internet. On this forum in particular! They talk about the Singularity usually in terms of the ability of machines to duplicate the antics of humans; but I'm guessing there's a type of Singularity that happens with mankind too. A type of Singularity that has to do with man discovering who he is and standing up to his full height. Do you remember the story of the Tower of Babel? How languages were separated, how man could no longer communicate with one another? It may be an analogy for the onset of the differences in man; those differences are now being eliminated. We can even speak to each other on our computers and have it automatically translate for us! It seems to be reaching a culmination of sorts; what is beyond the culmination is anybody's guess. YOU are the presence you've always looked for. It is inside YOU, not out there. When we can get down to it (here's that ugly inner cultivation thing again) we can hear it, we can feel it, and we know what to do in each and every situation. It's merely a process that has to start somewhere, with each one of us. I actually consider myself fortunate that I was an alcoholic and had to do inner work to keep from drinking any more. It was this very misfortune that kicked this process off, totally unbeknownst to me at the time. To start the process for yourself, just look at what made you angry or irritated today. Throw any defensiveness away and try to step to the side of yourself; assume you have every character flaw there is. Try to see exactly what part you played in an argument, what you were defending, why you were angry. Find out what your selfishnesses are, where your jealousies lie, where you are less than honest. Look and see if you are obsessive in some ways; if you are, it's covering up something you don't want to look at. Do this cleansing process daily - look for your part in these events always. Do not be afraid to see that you are less than you actually are. In reality, you are More than you actually think you are. But you must find this out for yourself. Figure out your memories; they are there for a reason, becuase you had some emotional reaction to an event. Our lives are the very mirror that we need, the compass that shows us what direction we are heading toward. Know yourself. That's where it lives. This is also the road that must be taken for enlightenment, which is, essentially, knowing who you Are. Enlightened people don't need to pray to something out there, they know that communally we are It. They take ultimate responsibility for their lives, don't look for excuses to avoid blame. Have you ever heard that when a person finally reaches enlightenment, he laughs? This is why. It turns out God is exactly opposite where we were originally taught he was. But isn't that perfect in a yin-yang sort of way?

I'd like to know what he says about PTSD too. I was pensioned off with this 30 years ago and the symptoms actually get worse as the years go on. There's only one thing that ever helps me, and that's to Be Here Now. The good thing about having PTSD is that it requires me to do that all the time....

Somewhere in the TTC it says something like to fully experience the phenomena, one must do so with emotion. To truly understand the Nature of something, we must do it without emotion. (I can't remember the exact words, it's just in my memory banks somewhere). I do believe we may have the choice! I think we can choose when and when not to wear emotions, when to succumb to them, when to cry them out, when to be joyful. But I think (actually, I Know) it's possible to transcend emotion when we have to. Last summer there was a little black horse living across the highway from me; he was all alone, the owner only stopped by to throw a bale of alfalfa every few days. I introduced myself to the owner and to the horse. The owner gave me permission to spend time with his animal, to give it treats, to curry him. I loved this little stallion. One day we came home and the horse was on the ground, sweating profusely. Being a horse person, I knew he was colicking. I ran around looking for some bute to get him out of his pain - couldn't reach the owner or no vets were open - and by the time I returned with the bute the little guy had died. I don't know how, but I transcended it. It would have been so devastating to me if I had indulged my feelings, but somehow I didn't. I said goodbye to the horse when his body was being hauled off by the owner. In fact, a year prior to this I had to put down my old mare and the tears lasted for at least a month, both me and my husband. It was really very odd. It was almost like I 'wasn't quite there' or something - a slightly separate reality. But there was a very deep spiritual component to it, I just can't quite put it into words.

Tzu-Jan is commonly translated as "nature." It is, however, not the nature of the physical world, but is the spiritual naturalness. Tzu-Jan is the primordial unperturbed process of self-development. It is the state of Oneness. Self-So. Spontaneity. Naturally so. With no apparent reason. Thank you for going to the trouble of finding this definition. Sounds like it is the cosmic blueprint that exists in the seed within.

(lol)

The last part of Lin Yutang's translation goes as follows: Therefore: Tao is Great, The Heaven is great, The Earth is great, The King is also great. These are the Great Four in the universe, And the King is one of them. Man models himself after the Earth; The Earth models itself after Heaven; The Heaven models itself after Tao; Tao models itself after Nature I have a couple comments. Marbles, in this version when he says 'These are the Great Four in the universe, And the King is one of them' it almost lends some credence to what you speculate. It's almost overkill here, sucking up to the king, lol? He really made a point of going out of his way to commend the King on his greatness not once, but twice. Also, could you tell me, what is Tzujan? When it says 'Tao follows the laws of nature', I think it means that any law of nature is going to be the law of Heaven or the law of Man as well. The principle of reversion, for example, is found everywhere in nature; things are born, they take their rise, they die. So does Everything. Friendships, politics, kings, everything. The law of gravity (or the law of attraction) works, whether we're talking about natural phenomena or a love affair. To really observe nature, to learn its lessons and see the rhythm, is to understand the unfolding of life on every level. Mr. T, I'm so glad you found this thread. Marbles and I were starting to act like an old married couple.

Interesting observation, Mr. T. Looking at it that way, as the collective, makes sense too. Especially since the last sentence of the previous chapter said 'When inner power develops and wisdom emerges, the myriad things will, to the last one, be grasped. This does seem to indicate that he's talking about the 10,000 things....that when inner power is gained, everything is seen for what it is. This would apply to both the inner self and the outer 10,000 things. I once read a yogi book that emphasized not looking at the object, look at the reason behind the object. This can only be done with inner understanding. To answer your question, I'm only posting the one translation, so I'm not sure about anything. But I'll bet with everyone triangulating this, we can dissect it as well as if we were operating off several. Just call me a cockeyed optimist.

Friend, your analysis was eye-opening! Thank you so much! Taking your thoughts one step further (as to storing wisdom in the chest); lo and behold, this is where the heart is! That certainly ties in with your 'love without loving' comment; the Sage IS love; he doesn't have to decide to use it here or there.

Windblown, please don't go anywhere! You're going to be too much fun, I can tell. I've never read the I-Ching. You are way ahead of me there. My particular path was just the 12 steps, starting back in 1981; once I got into the program, I went full bore born-again Christian, then outgrew that. I discovered the Eastern philosophies some years ago and have read lots of Yogi and Buddhist books and works. But one day I discovered the Tao Te Ching at a yard sale. It's very short, but the wisdom contained in those few pages was something that my heart just leapt at. I have read many translations of the same thing. But you are already 'here'. Please don't feel like this forum is a course of study or anything; more commonly, it's a bunch of people who have cut loose of ANY form of religious preference. Some of the most open minded people in the world here. I think the only reason people may have responded to your initial questions with mention of various tomes is because of the way you worded your initial question. Please just stick around. There is no dogma here to be studied; I have no immediate plans for even reading the I-Ching. The reason we're studying the Tao Te Ching (up in the Tao Te Ching section at the top of the pinned topics) is because there are so many different ways of looking at it - everyone who translates it from the Chinese (I am not a translator) seems to put their own spin on it, depending on the depth of their own spiritual knowledge. We're also looking at another work, the Nei-Yeh - a thread I started because I just discovered it the other day (at someone's recommendation) and it's very similar to the Tao te Ching, but it gives a little more input as to how people get into their inner serves. This you already know how to do. I can tell you also that not everyone on this forum has done any inner work at all. It becomes pretty apparent; there are those with negative attitudes that stand out like a sore thumb. I in particular would love to see you stick around because your voice is so very alive, and it's obvious that you know yourself down to the bone, which is where the inner work gets you to. Once we've gotten down to the bone, the Tao manifests. This is where the wu-wei happens. I'd be interested to know what you are calling wu-wei; if you truly understand how to do it, this is another thing that is in short supply on this forum, despite the fact that it is a Tao forum. There might be a little more to it than you're thinking. It doesn't seem like any of us here started out as "Taoists" or even identify as such. I haven't heard anybody on this forum even talk about being one. This just seems to be a place where we all land once we've climbed out of the structure of organized religious structure in any discipline. AA types are really further along than they think because of their propensity and willingness to go within and look for your own deficiencies. We do get into discussions here where some do not see the necessity for doing this at all; I am one who thinks it is absolutely essential for the understanding of deep spiritual dynamic. To know ourself is to know the world, in a certain sense. So, girlfriend - please take the pressure off yourself. Nuthin' to read, nuthin' to do. But do stick around. We need your particular wisdom; I can see it between the lines you write. To coin a phrase, "Keep Comin' Back", lol. Barb