manitou

Yeh, but beyond this the metaphysical legs really get a stretch.

Now that's a great answer.

TWIV - thank you so much for posting that wonderful synopsis of the evolution of Taoism. Your deep understanding shines so apparently between your lines. I have been curious for some time about whether there was a path of self cultivation within the Taoist evolution; I hadn't seen it mentioned in the threads I've been on - In ancient times, was it was reserved only for the masters? Or am I reading it incorrectly?

Wow. The mother of all Chaos. I love it. And it occurs to me that it's only chaos if we fear it. Without fear it becomes serendipity.

I can't even put into words what this forum means to me. Where I live, we have nobody at all to talk about abstract concepts with, particularly if they tend toward the spiritual. I feel like talking with TTB's is exercising my metaphysical legs every day, something I haven't done in a very long time. Reading your posts, and writing mine, has helped me to define what it is that I'm really thinking. It is really apparent to me that there are stratified circles of like-minded mentalities that hold us together in the world, at some cosmic level. I would imagine that TTB's and other sites like this one are one of the very highest concentric circles. If there were one much higher, they wouldn't have to type; they would merely think back and forth at each other and wink. When you listen to highly evolved people, say someone like Fareed Zakaria or Deepak Chopra or even the Dalai Lama, who's to say? Maybe one of them is amongst us right now. And it feels to me that this forum is evolving as well. It seems like our conversations get a little higher and a little higher. Like Marbles, I too am retired and have the time to pay attention and check in a couple times a day; without TTB, my ideas would become stale very quickly. I do love each and every one of you. Barb

I look forward to reading what you have to say about it too. Don't hurry. Take your time. Have a beer. Put your feet up.

No, this will probably separate me from many others. I do believe we are one, in reality. I think it is an illusion that we are separate at all. This is why, when the Sage (or our general in the Art of War) gets to finally know himself, then he knows everyone else as well. We are all sand on the beach. The beach is the One. Or, we are all rays of the same sun. We are One. To finally love myself is to finally love you.

Maybe it's meant to be interpreted 'Awareness of the Great Tao' or something. I see what you're saying.

(Ralis, I wish I could understand what you're saying here - my 12th grade education just doesn't cut it for this one) Honestly, I think we're all talking about the same thing. My experience is that once you go deep enough, go in far enough, there is a well of knowledge that is tapped. This well of knowledge is shared by others who have gotten in deeply enough. My personal path in Forrest Gumping into this well, was through ugly behavior - alcoholism and everything that goes along with being a female bar drinker. It had nothing to do with any religious fervor on my part. I did not seek any spiritual attainment, I merely needed to stay sober. In working the steps (which apparently have quite a spiritual component, which we've all discussed before) this inward-looking process produced a series of what I call "Aha's!" I've been following this inward looking path for nearly 30 years. The Aha's finally get you down to a place, a place of self realization. The Aha's are found on any path - in fact, as I recall, my first Aha's were in a psychiatrist's office in 1981; I didn't stop drinking or start working the steps until a short time later. What I'm talking about is just the internal process wherein we get to know ourselves and discover who we are. Some would call this enlightenment, once you finally meet yourself. Along the way, I did discover the incredible world of spirituality, and I've been reading everything that caught my eye since then. But no particular spiritual path. Just going in. As to being here with you? Just call me Forrest.

I guess the only way I mean it is my own experience. If I allow my less than desirable characteristics have full sway, the karma created is magnificent. But then as a recovering alkie, my guess is that I had more negative bundles of neurotic responses than most. By being aware of my less than desirable qualities, I try to work on them daily, in each and every situation. I know they're there, I don't let them run freely. As time goes on and on and a certain degree of internal order is achieved, Mr. Castaneda would have us understand the concept of impeccability of spirit and continuing to maintain vigilance over our character. I guess it's a warrior thing. I think it's also a sage thing. The sage could not have achieved what is described in the TTC without reverting to his original nature, i.e. working through all the illusions of character. This is not to say that anybody can actually achieve impeccability of spirit, where our jealousies, our selfishnesses, do not arise. But to put our feet on the path and be willing for those neuroses to be lessened by willful attempts is a thing of desirability, to my way of thinking. I've just got too much wrong with me to run around totally unchecked, lol.

Lotsa karma.

Does it seem like we're watching TV coverage of the meek inheriting the earth?

Yes, how many realities are we talking about? Countless, no doubt. To refer to a 'separate reality' is a big oversimplification, for sure. I agree with you about spiritual books having things going on between the lines. This is the essense, is it not? The Tao that can be spoken of is not the true Tao. The essence of Tao shows up in all tomes, I suspect; I'm not familiar with all of them, but I do have the suspicion that they all end up at the same place, if people go to the trouble of priming themselves for the delivery of the truths, via the inner work. The philosophy of Taoism seems to be the one that is capable of embracing all others; it eliminates nothing and welcoms all mindsets. Feet can land on the path and feel perfectly at home, regardless of where they've come from.

Any understanding I've gotten is as a result of inner work. Thank you for your kind words.

In its most simplistic form, the mantra for all this is Do Nothing.

18. If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. It appears to me that this is the essence of daoism. The way I see it, we are all One; therefore, if someone gets down to their original nature by going inside themselves and finding the uncarved wood, they are capable of seeing and knowing another, as we are all the same. We are One. I can't think of a place even in the TTC where it actually says we are all One and to know ourselves is to know others, but here it is in Sun Tzu... A knowledge of human nature, which we all share, is what the Sage/general attains. If he can utilize his knowledge of human nature to fight a war, this would seem to be the desired method and virtually unbeatable. P.S. - Yes, putting this up in the TTC area would be great - it's too easy to miss this down in the conversation area.

Yes.

Another way to look at Te is that which describes the Sage. How did he get to be the way he is? Cautious, like a man crossing a wintry stream. Self-effacing. Uncarved wood. He didn't get this way through ego. He got this way through going in and becoming self realized. The Sage is the template for attitude, apparently. It couldn't be further from religion. It is the realization that we are human and as such, we grow up with a bunch of neuroses. In order to achieve clarity and See, we have to do it from a place of relaxed neuroses, or at least have command over our neuroses so they don't get in the way of the internal telescope. Walking like this over a long period of time will create a being who is self-examined, free of ego entanglements, and capable of going through life with simplicity.

wow

I think we have trouble with the concept of virtue (te) if we are still in a state of rebellion. If this is the case, the obstacles are easily remedied by a little inner work. The rebel does not see from a point of clarity; he is seeing from merely a ledge that he thinks is the bottom. Te, virtue, has nothing to do with good and bad. It has more to do with clarity and obstruction. If the idea of virtue still has a good or bad connotation within, then maybe its time for introspection.

I think I see what you're saying. I concur with the idea of two separate realities occurring at the same time; different levels. One cosmic perhaps, the other physical. Almost like an Oahspe sort of arrangement, if you're familiar. (old metaphysical) My guess is that there is simultaneous manifestation occurring on both levels.

I'm just curious how many folks here are here because life did you in in some way. Most of the younger people, I wouldn't expect that to be the case. But maybe the older ones? In my case, it was alcoholism, pure and simple. I merely had to find a way to live comfortably in my skin without booze to mask the feelings, which for some reason I was always afraid to experience or emote. It required changing my thinking about life 180 degrees. That brought to my attention the spiritual path. It was 1981 when I got sober, and I had to go through an obnoxious born-again Christian thing at the beginning. The evolution has continued since then. Any other examples of seemingly bad becoming seemingly good?

Yes, the long way around is the only way to go, far as I can see. I think I was born the long way around. I say that you are a shaman because you seem to have a deep understanding of quiescence and the reversion of the Tao, combined with your tendency to look to nature for answers. It just all boils down to the same thing. This truly is a room where all paths meet.

"I have to say that it is the wit of Taoism that, different from other religions , it finds the solution from the opposite side of our mind , ie, lower dantian where yang-qi arise, to counteract our trivial , evil spirit, and upgrade it rather than relying on the most-likely fruitless work in the arena of spirit . In fact, how can you rely on something itself trivial and evil, to cure itself ? I'm so glad you mentioned this. I've wondered what method Taoists uses to eliminate the unwanted obstacles from our character. I agree, it is only through purifying our innards that we can get to the place we seek, so that the vision becomes clear. Obstacles distort our view; we think we're seeing clearly, but we're not. Going to the opposite is a sure way to understand most anything, I've found. It's a fast triangulation. Wonderful post!