manitou

It always amazes me when the western mind can understand this. This is so profound it hurts.

I don't doubt that most everybody here would agree that it's all Mind. I think that science, specifically quantum physics, is walking up the same hill on a different and is in the process of meeting philosophy, such as we talk about here; what the mystics have known for millenia. If this is the case, that it's all Mind and that developing our wakefulness is why we're here to begin with, it does stand to reason to me that we do manifest, from the inside to the outside, our physical ailments. Where it gets woo-woo is when it seems that we manifest accidents or living conditions to bring about a particular physical state of affairs; but that very state of affairs (and the remedy) is the very thing that we need in order to bring about the needed conditions that the I Am inside of us 'wants' for our completion. For our total integration, which would include mind and body. Christian Science healers have utilized this very concept since Mary Baker Eddy triangulated all the 'red words of Jesus' in the bible, along with all reported healings. When the Nazarene said things like 'go and sin no more', I don't think he was talking about the black and white 'sin' that has been wrongfully attached to his words. I think he knew exactly Who he was, and he knew exactly Who the person he was healing was, too. He was trying to get them to change their mindset, to think differently about themselves; to realize that their 'sins were forgiven' because of the same conditioning enigma that we all have to live with. If I grew up with the same conditioning you did, I'd behave the same way. I believe he was saying that the healee's mental process has been the very thing that has caused the condition, and that they could cut loose of the guilt and manifestations they were carrying, because life is actually a pretty no-fault situation. There but by the grace of god go I, getting back to the conditioning question. I have seen dramatic healings done utilizing this very dynamic. I have seen a young man healed of quadriplegia because of a ceremony changing the life dynamics that had occurred previously. As seemingly horrible as the boy's causative situation was, the entire process 'healed' not only his body, but a longstanding and nasty dynamic with his father that got in the way of further progress on the life path for either one of them. I have seen different forms of cancer healed, by one who triangulated the causative dynamic and reversed it with ceremony. All based on the premise that linear time is not Really a Thing, that the days come and go because of planetary rotation, not because time is a separate entity of its own. With what I've seen, it would be real hard to convince me that mind isn't the very thing that causes malady. And the malady is often the very 'tell' that tells the healer what dynamic to look for.

And just when did you start spying on me and my twin, old man?

Everything becomes easy. All of the above -- shifted psychology, shifted perceptions, shifted physiology. Nothing really matters in a relative sense any more, because it's all one big happening, happening now. No one gets your goat when you're in the non-dual state because the realization is there that the other person is You, and if you were brought up with the very same conditioning, you would be acting in the very same way. When the realization occurs that there is not an entity floating around in space that runs things, that the intelligence that we're part of is running it communally and , indeed, it's already happened so what's to worry about? All these very subtle things merge together and shift one's attitude to more of an 'Eh..' perspective. Not to say that disengaging is where we are meant to stay. It's not, or we wouldn't be having this strange world experience. But the choice is now yours as to whether to buy into it or not. You can go 'high or low' at will. If ego has been diminished, you can love your brother as yourself, and everyone on the face of the earth is your brother. With ego still fully integrated, you are pulled unwillingly to and fro, anything or anybody can push your buttons. But the removal (to the greatest degree possible, we have to retain enough to stay out of oncoming traffic) of the ego enables us to be compassionate to absolutely everybody, and to make way fewer judgments. Judgments are realized as the dividing force that they are; and with division comes ego reinforcement. Which is not a desirable thing if one is looking to self-realize. (Please lay off the New Age comments, 3Bob) Even traveling is different. There is suddenly an awareness that you are at 'home' anywhere in the world you decide to place yourself. It makes no difference whether you are physically here or there. There is something inside you which is fixed, which is ageless, and which realizes that you will die on your expiration date and everybody has one. So what's to worry about? Realizing that the world situation as it currently stands, although 'horrible' (seemingly) has already happened, and we're just playing catch-up and watching it unfold within the constraints of time. Planetary rotation. The event has already come and gone. And to realize that all of this is happening because for some strange reason It just wants to 'return to itself' within the margins of physicality. Why? I haven't a clue. But it's waiting for us to figure this out within each and every one of us. That We are It. We are the Wizard behind the curtain, as Stirling would say.

No. It was actually a little tongue in cheek, although apparently either my tongue or my cheek was a little too dry. I was actually being a little oblique. If I had been as direct as I wanted to be, I would have written it directly to 3Bob I love your nose, by the way

Sorry for the manifesto, friend. I'll try to be more direct in the future.

It's stealing, I guess, if someone lays claim to it, as an author. It's stealing if one holds that idea up as their own creation, and has their ego entrenched in it. To that person, it would be stealing. I agree with you there. To that person, the one whose ego rides on identification with that concept, it would feel like something was being stolen from them. But to those who have traveled beyond identification with any particular method, this stealing appears as immature. The more mature outlook is to realize that there is only one absolute reality, and that all named paths, all methodologies, are nothing more than conveyances. I return to the point where, regardless of where in the world we're born, there is a propelling impetus within our hearts to understand 'something'. It drives us to question, it drives us upward. It doesn't matter whether we're born into a Buddhist country or a Christian nation, or of atheistic parents. Even atheists are called to ponder the question in their hearts, and have chosen to believe that there is nothing "out there". IMO, they are closer to the truth than many others. Who is more correct? The one who spends much of his life worshipping the inside of the car he's been riding in all his life, or the one that realizes that the destination is more important than what kind of car he took to get there? Sure, somebody can steal someone else's car, but the person who arrived at the destination doesn't need the car any more, and could just as easily give it away, as he's finally found the place he's been looking for. I hate to use the word "God", because that is such a remnant of my youth. But I'll use it here for simplicity's sake. God is either everything or he is nothing. The Dao is everything or it is nothing. If indeed it is everything, then one car is just as good as the other car, and to borrow and utilize aspects of all world religions, all paths, is a very intelligent thing to do. I think the very best understanding of the DDJ is not in the reading of one translation, but in the triangulation of many different translator's 'truths'. It is in this triangulation, this mental comparing and seeing the commonality of all paths, that some use to find the absolute reality that all who have transcended their individual paths to find the commonality within all paths have found. Nobody ever reverts from non-dualism back to dualism, once it is Realized. I capitalize this for a reason. It is Self Realization that is the goal. What does that actually mean? I can't tell you, you have to realize it for yourself. This is the distance, this self realization, between the master's fingertip and the moon. In one sense, the yogis will tell you to kill your thoughts. In one aspect, this is true. The monkey mind must be tamed to get there. But on the other hand, there are thoughts of a different nature that are undeniable and necessary. The thought process of discarding the words of another - the quotes, even the masters - and forming new words of understanding in your own mind. We were issued brains for a reason. Personally, I think this is the very reason that we were issued brains. To figure this out. I truly believe it when Yutang's DDJ says 'the action of the Dao is reversion'. It is reverting back to itself, the one, before the 10,000 things manifested. The stream of consciousness, whatever is most appropriate for understanding by the experience of your particular background. The day that the need for approval, for utilizing the helpful words of another, for instruction by a master - this is the day we come into our own, the answer is experienced. It is no longer a concept out in the distance with all the bells and whistles. Some alchemical thing happens to the individual, and they become something different. Joseph has finally put on his coat of many colors. There is no longer right and wrong. Morality ceases to be a consideration, because the highest action will flow out of you of its own accord. Other than taming the monkey mind, the only other requisite is ego diminishment. If one continually bangs the drum (or honks the horn of one's car of preference) of any given path, this is ego reinforcing. The humility that is required for the camel to get through the eye of the needle will never be found. To realize that no one is higher than another, no one is better than another, and that, indeed, we are all merely temporarily in the shape of a wave in the same ocean - this is the humility required to get through the eye of the needle. How many can achieve this? Not many. But it is the mansion we seek. And in that mansion are many rooms, one room labeled Buddhism, another labeled Hindi, and so on. But they all dwell in the same mansion. All we need to do is realize that we're already living in the mansion. We just don't know it.

So many paths, so little time. We'll all meet in the same cosmic blender. Even the American and Hindu Indians, regardless of who appreciates it or not.

old3bob - I'm getting the impression that you don't think real highly of "new age". I'm not even sure what you mean by that! Is it some hocus pocus thing you're afraid of? I'm wondering that if anyone strays off a delineated path, you call them New Age. Is that the case? If so, you're in for a bit of a surprise....

This is curious. In the DDJ there is mention of taking the middle path, the broad path, and how people love to get distracted by the side paths. Same principle, I guess - just from a reverse point of view.

There was a movie years ago where a man was in a hard labor camp, razor wire all around him - maybe in Siberia or somewhere. I wish I could remember the name of the movie. He was talking about the beauty of the sunset, as he momentarily stopped from his labors. He was talking about loving the guards. I wish I could remember this movie, I'd love to watch it again. But I've never forgotten that scene. Maybe that's the point. The words of truth sticks to our soul like lint sticks to a little black dress. Everything else is forgotten, truth remains. In the sense of oneness, it is fascinating to me that if I recognize something in someone else (think of the nastiest politician you can think of!) it's because I have that very same trait as a template within me. Otherwise I wouldn't know what it is. I guess this is why when someone makes a statement about the intentions or motivations of another, it is said that it tells you more about the speaker than the one spoken of. I am Trump. A hard one to swallow.

That's the trick, that's the practice, that's the goal. I'm not sure it ever ends. But there comes a point in time where the nuts and bolts of any particular path are no longer important. It doesn't matter what path was taken to get there. Once the mind, the fickle thoughts, have been tamed, yes, there is vanquishment. Not 100% of the time, but enough awareness to pull them back to the place of Om when you see that you're letting your thoughts take you for a ride. This can be done many times a day, if needed. And it's fresh every time! Needy ego is also vanquished in degrees. Arrogance, assuredness, a sense of superiority - these things can be lessened if one earnestly works on diminishing them. This is why it hurts to admit mistakes or to make an apology - because ego takes a beating. But that is the very thing that ego needs - to take a beating. Ego confirms wrongfully our sense of separateness from each other. So does arrogance, so does head knowledge - they give the illusion of separateness.

I think this is right on, Steve. I became K-active maybe 30 years ago, and have been ever since. Fickle mind and needy ego made it Quite a Thing to me for some time. Now? Eh. Just bothersome tingling. It occurs to me that dual or non-dual can also be equated to knowing or being. Seems to happen gradually, the metamorphosis from knowing to being.

It all goes to the same place.

The dual bit.

Some day you may be a little embarrassed by this...

Most Buddhists may not have yet transcended the dogma and found the commonality. And, the commonality is present in Islam as well. It's present in Hindi. It's present in Christianity. The Whirling Dervishes experience the commonality. Daoists have it. Scientologists even have it. It's the very thing we're born with that propels us upward to look for it. We merely look in the wrong places. I'm fairly sure that Jesus too would have refuted Christianity - more specifically, the strange tendency to worship his person. He was an enlightened one, that's all - as was Muhammed, as was Gautama, as was Lao Tzu. This wasn't where they were going at all with their teachings. Human nature seems to have a tendency to want to quote, and memorize the great words of another. Yet, actually internalizing these great words is the great trick; living out our lives in the spirit of these great words in everything we do. The Beginner's mind, the Zen mind, is open to all possibilities. Answers are not learned, nobody gives the answers. The answers unfold. It's as though there is someone behind you shining light on the path with each step you take. You can look down and see the applied answer any time you need it, in all of its manifestations and in all circumstances. The actions become clear and immediate.

It also seems to me that the room of Certainty is where Ego reigns.

Why knock it if you haven't tried it??

Kind is good. The history and application of kindness in my own life is muddled. I used to think that being kind was letting people walk all over me. I used to think that being kind was buying drinks for people in a bar. I used to think that being kind was not speaking my peace. I used to think that being kind and enabling someone to stay sick were the same thing. I used to think that founding an organization that gave homeless people money to make art was kind. I used to think that trying to save people's souls was kind. I used to think that 'looking for ways that I could help' was kind. But those were all deeds, not kindness. Kindness is here and now, kindness in the moment. Kindness on an internet forum. Realizing that people are living out their own karma, and they don't need me to interfere. Kindness is fielding whatever comes at me with kindness, but not to go out looking for ways to be kind - in my case, that was just ego. Sometimes the most unkind things said are really the most kind. One day my police partner said 'You can go from a 10 to a 2 faster than any woman I've ever seen in my life'. He was talking about my drinking. It was not a kind thing to say. But i never forgot it, and it was useful to me to get sober. Someone pretty close to me is a bit of a deadbeat. He never has money, he's not very well in several ways. I am tempted to give him money, but I don't. He can do better for himself than he does. He can quit smoking cigarettes, which are nearly $10 a pack, for one. But kindness, in this case, tells me to let him earn money when he's able. He gets $50 to wash the dogs. $20 to wash the kitchen floor. Stuff like that. It seems to be kinder to do it that way for a couple reasons. He feels better about himself when I'm not doling out money. I feel better about myself when I'm not doling out money. My way of being kind in this particular case is to not-do. I do not expect anything of him. I say nothing if he sleeps all day in his room because he's taken too much of his medication. I say nothing if he cancels an appointment either with me or someone else, I don't expect anything different from him. One could say that I'm letting him walk all over me, but on the other hand I know he'd be living under a bridge if he weren't here. So I let him stay. But the funny thing is, that after 2 1/2 years of this, he is getting better all the way around. It reminds me of that school in England, I think (can't remember the name at this moment) where kids are sent who have no ability to fit in or succeed anywhere else. They get to the school, only to find out that absolutely nothing is expected of them! They can cut class all day, not turn in assignments, nothing. Nothing is said to them, they are allowed to do that. But there is something inside the kids that seems to self-rectify. Ultimately, they get tired of themselves and sort of fall into the program. They self-improve if nobody is riding herd on them. This is my theory with my friend. And I have seen a lot of changes in this fellow. I do speak my peace when needed, but it's not in anger. It's more of a matter-of-fact peace, a spoken peace that requires a modicum of maturity. Kindness certainly must mean something different to everybody.

This reminds me of so many conversations we've had here about attachments. When there is no attachment to an outcome, or to a hope, stillness is felt. It can be lived. It seems to me that it all comes down to acceptance of what is. And when it is finally recognized that all things are of the same source, (even source isn't quite the right word, as there is an implication of time passing) there is nothing to get upset about. As I see it, anxiousness can be bypassed because it's already happened, if linear time is nothing more than planetary rotation. No rotation, no time. No expectations of anyone.

Beautiful, both! The translation reading on #2 was profound.

Yes. It starts with 0, then turns into the 10,000 things pretty quickly.

Excellent clip! I guess we can choose to be the Sage or the Jedi.

I've thought a lot about Jesus. I was brought up worshipping him, and then got away from him. When I got sober 40 years ago, I became a born-again Christian, sort of picking up where I had left off years prior. That was just my path - although an alcoholic one, surprisingly spiritual, but it has brought me here to you, dawn90. Do you ever wonder what it is in man's heart that, regardless of where in the world he/she was born, there is something that questions? Something that propels us upward? It started to bother me that a person on the other side of the earth was as equally convinced that their path was the only righteous one, as I was about Christianity. I remained in a us vs. them sort of mindset for a few years, until the workings of recovery had its way with me. I came to realize that it's all one Big Question that resides in the heart of man, regardless of where they were born and into which faith. That question (ultimately, it boils down to Who Am I?) is the great equalizer, I've found. Faith. There's a topic. I was a victim to blind faith, believing in exactly what my parents had taught me to believe. But when the process of stripping away conditioning (it was really necessary in my case, to stay away from alcohol) I started to see a larger view of things. I came to realize that blind faith has an upper lid on it. That dogma of any shape or form is limiting. What I understand today, is that if a particular belief doesn't include each and every man and woman on the planet, that it's flawed. You obviously have a great deal of faith in your heart, and a great deal of love. I am very glad that you're here. I'm guessing that one of two things is happening with you? Either you happened on this site, took pity on us poor heathens, and determined to set us straight. Or, in the alternative, you have found the upper lid on the Christian dogma, even if you don't recognize it quite yet. Something keeps you coming back to us, a pretty dogma-free bunch. I think the one thing that does bind together most of us on this site is our discovery and love of the Dao de Jing - such a small little book with such profound wisdom - a wisdom that, when followed, irons out one's life in amazing ways. If you're not familiar with this little book, I would heartily recommend it to you. My suggestion, as to which interpreter, might be Stephen Mitchell for you - he appeals a lot to the western mind, and he's pretty down to earth. A real good place to begin, IMO. This will not conflict with your love of Jesus, or your Christian foundation at all. Rather, it will take the lid off the ceiling of your faith (which apparently you've hit or you wouldn't be here!) and you will integrate the Beatitudes and the Sermon on the Mount in a deeper way than you ever probably have! Love your brother as yourself? Why did he say that? Because we are all One. Judge not, lest ye be judged? Because we are all one spirit, Jesus recognized that given the same conditioning, the same schooling, the same parents, the same life lessons.....that we would be doing exactly what that person 'sinning' is doing. To judge another is to cut off our own hand. Jesus was the son of god. He realized that. But what he also realized is that you are too! The only difference between you and him is that he realized it and you don't yet. You're still worshipping a man that didn't want to be worshipped at all! It wasn't about worshipping his figure or his frame or his deeds - it was about achieving our own self-awareness. When he said 'Be still and know I Am God', this was meant to be the voice inside you! Yes, you! He wasn't talking about his personal conditioned self. He was speaking of the communal 'I', the merging of the spirit of all of us as One being. Sort of like we're all the same water being poured into different glasses, that's all. Hope I didn't offend you, friend. Please stick around, and consider taking a look at the DDJ. At least you'll have a clue as to what we're talking about in this friendly little place.