manitou

Hi mostly_empty - However, when you get back to the reversion of the Dao to the void, does it not come down to the same thing? That one could call it samsara because it reverts back to none other than thought? Our thought? I'm not seeing a huge distinction there. I woke up out of a dream last night, and wrote down what a voice was telling me. This could relate to what the misfortune is that we're speaking of. The voice said "Be one with the pain, realizing that it's not hurting us at all, but merely this shell that we must walk around in."

Really nice, Jonesboy. This originally started out as a rumination on Chapter 12, but sort of extended into 13 as well. The operative phrase, for me, in Worldpeace's rendition, at the end of 12, is 'she chooses oneness and distinguishes nothing'. I've been practicing dream yoga lately, in that I remind myself daily, as many times as I can remember, to be aware that this is just a dream. Consequently, the optimal situation is that there is little separation between your nighttime dreams and your daily activities; they merge into one entity of sorts. This is what I was thinking of when the original thought of Ch 12 is that the 5 colors blind the eye, etc; that it is all oneness, that it is all light, and that any specific color, or sound, is merely an elimination of all quantum possibilities of everything else. Sort of looking at all of life 'bass-ackwards', but making sense in a Daoistic or Buddhist sense. I think it does chapter 12 a disservice to see it merely as a question of balance - not too much, not too little, although this is certainly an important aspect of the 3 Treasures. However, I think these interesting chapters, 11, 12, and 13 are saying a bit more. Yes, misfortune arises from being trapped in samsara, as you so eloquently say. Edit: And how do we choose oneness and distinguish nothing, in our everyday given samsara? This is tricky. I believe it is to remain in consciousness that that is the way it is; naturally, sometimes you want to pick up a Hershey bar rather than a pickle, and picking up the wrong one would be an assault to our samsaric senses. Yet, the Enlightened One would know that these are one and the same, the Hershey bar and the pickle; it is only our sense capabilities and definitions that distinguish one from the other. This is illusion, but in the case of the Hershey bar a very tasty one. What an odd tightrope we must walk, for some unknown reason, in this thing called human experience. I have a habit of 'seeing and knowing' that the black spot inside everyone's eyes is 'god'. This is my daily practice that I walk around with. The beggar on the street, the president of a country, a nun, a homicidal maniac. All just 'gods' playing out their part the best they know how. Even the homicidal maniac. Even knowing that if I had the same upbringing, the same conditioning, etc - that I may very well succumb to the same emotional motivation as the homicidal maniac and act out in the very same way. It certainly makes life easier to bear to think this way, and it is aligned with the Dao and the Sutras. It almost enables me to watch Fox News, although I'm not quite at that place of Enlightenment just yet. I've a bit more work to do before that hot stripe stops climbing up my back. But it's a good litmus test.

Hi Solemn Shade - glad you found your way to us. A great forum. Do enjoy yourself. Manitou

Hi josepvh - glad you found the forum. Do enjoy your time here, and best wishes to you. Manitou

Hi Quanjang - very happy to have you here. Love the squatch insight!

Hi taichiwhitey - welcome to this wonderful forum, and you'll no doubt get much out of it. Best wishes, Manitou

Hello insead, and welcome to the forum. Do enjoy your time here.

I have found an interpretation of Ch 12 and 13 that I feel expresses what I have tried to say here. It is the World Peace translation (?): 12.1 The oneness of the five colors blind the eyes. The oneness of the five tones deafens the ears. The oneness of the five flavors dull the tongue. 12.2 Racing ahead of change and pursuing the illusion of reality promotes confusion. 12.3 Therefore, the sage is in harmony with what she is and does not distinguish what she sees. She chooses oneness and distinguishes nothing. # 13.1 Accept disgrace indifferently. Acknowledge misfortune as one of the human conditions. 13.2 What does it mean to "accept disgrace indifferently"? Honor and disgrace are one in the Infinite. Only by making distinctions does one manifest disgrace. Refusing to make distinctions merges honor and disgrace into the oneness of circumstances which creates harmony. 13.3 What is meant by "acknowledging misfortune as one of the human conditions"? The body is a manifestation of Infinity and the body is subject to being affected by the other manifestations of Infinity. Misfortune is one of those other manifestations. However, as with disgrace, refusing to distinguish misfortune and fortune creates indifference which keeps one focused on the oneness of Infinity and creates peace in the self. 13.4 Stay centered in your oneness with Infinity and you can be entrusted with leadership. See the world as yourself and you will care for all things. Edit: I just googled John Worldpeace. He's either a contemporary visionary, a basketball player, or what one has called a 'skunk with a yellow stripe down his back' who did some jail time for being a con artist. Seems like the translation of the DDJ is contemporary if it is the contemporary visionary, as he was born in 1948 (I think I remember) and his home page appears to be written in Chinese characters. Even if he's the con artist doing time, even a broken clock is right twice a day. I think, personally, that he's right on with this rendition of chapters 12 and 13. But then again, I may only be right twice a day too. Second edit: Just found the right web page, I think http.//johnworldpeace.com . He seems to be coming from a Christian perspective, although transcended to include one and all philosophies, ethnicities, etc. around the world.

Perhaps it is because it's only as we grow into acceptance of self that we grow into compassion for others.

I've stopped worrying about where I am at all.

Yes, and to know that all things at every moment are exactly as they should be; that we are unrealized buddhas, at different levels of awareness, reaching metaphorically toward the sun. That what appears as bad is not bad at all; it is necessary for the evolution and the reversion to the nothingness of the Dao. That we are merely actors playing our part, and in actuality it has already played out and we're merely playing catch-up, as time is not really linear at all. Very comforting, and it places my heart at rest any time I snap into awareness of these realizations. Letting things affect us is part of our humanness, I guess - but we have the option of seeing through this and dwelling in the reality of the unreality of all this experience. It can be done instantaneously if one is practiced, if one is skilled. And to know that our outer manifestations are the evidence of what we truly desire on the inside. If we've manifested undesirable things and events in our lives, then it is up to us to look at our inner mental projections, to make the corrections, to change the habit of our mental judgments and views. I woke up this morning with my heart relaxed and open. It was as though a knot had been there for years and I hadn't been aware of it until it released. It was as a result of a dream I had last night, where I had a long conversation with another woman who too had been the victim of a real Romeo many years ago - he broke my heart and the heart of many other women who worked for the City of Los Angeles - an adept man at romancing women. We lived together for a year. In my dream, I hugged one of the other women who too was his victim. We talked about his adeptness, how many of us were hanging around his neck on a necklace of sorts. When we embraced, me and this other woman, it was so liberating. We forgave him. His name was Bayan, and he was born in China to American parents - but Bayan means A Thousand Eyes in Chinese (according to him) and we realized that he has looked into the eyes of a thousand women, or that he had a thousand eyes for women, and it wasn't his fault but his remnant karma that made him this way. After 40 years, the knot is gone from my heart. I didn't even know it was there. My inner vision is greater today than it was yesterday. I think that was the thing that struck me about the originally quoted passage - mention of the inner vision. Vision into ourselves, as opposed to vision from the inside to the outside. Thank you for getting it.

Yes, I know what you say is true. But the inner eyes are needed.

Well, I guess I was just seeing too much in that passage. Perhaps balance is all he was talking about. The alligator steak was a bit like chicken fried abalone. Had to try it once.

Thank you, SBHHE - very nicely put indeed, with much clarity. I had alligator steak last night, but I don't think I'll be overdoing it on that one.

Eh. Sometimes a sandwich is just a sandwich, lol. Nicely put, Jonesboy, when you say that the Ten Thousand things are empty. My original point (I think?) was just that; previously when I had read and re-read this chapter from various translators, my assumption that the vision started with the inner and went to the outer. But I now read something more into it; that our manifestations are a litmus test for what our inner condition is. It's as though the lens can be turned around and the universe is viewed absolutely differently by everybody, we can't possibly see it the same way as each other. And that there is absolutely no reality at all, there's no decider (other than maybe 'W') of what reality is. To know the universe, to perceive the universe, is so entirely subjective; and for some reason during this reading of Mitchell's Chapter 12 it just sort of made me laugh. Yes, striving for all of THAT is so ridiculous and merely serves to solidify something entirely subjective that isn't really there at all. And I'm guessing the Truth Beyond Illusion that Kar3n speaks of is that Void, that Dao, that has always been and will always be that resides there within us; beyond words, beyond concept. We are the Void, and this Void is shared with how many other countless universes and buddha-lands? But even that is arbitrary. What makes one feel punched in the stomach, metaphorically, will make another feel smug, or victimized, or happy. So the Truth isn't even what we feel inside. It's only the Truth to that particular feeler at that particular moment in that feeler's state of awareness. What does seem to be constant is change, adaptation, and having to learn this dream's lessons over and over until we finally get the message. That it just Is, that's all. And yet I can't help but feel that the template of the plant growing toward the light is in operation here too. And that the operative principle is truly Reversion to the Void. To drop the baloney, the B.S., the phoniness, the mask, the arrogance, the pursuit of power, of money, of prestige; because pursuit of all those things only serves to prove that something inside us is sorely lacking. Otherwise we needn't try so hard to succeed. Or win. Just ask Mr. Trump. Perhaps we are to revert to the original human being; the metaphor being that Adam and Eve were given the choice of eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge (and I do mean metaphor here; please nobody take me seriously). We may be gods of sorts in our original state; and yet, as much as we think we've evolved, I look at all the needless junk I have around me in my house, all my needless clothing, or jewelry, or whatever. How very far we have devolved if looked at in this way; how very far from the earth we have come, how very layered we are in our houses (speaking of the Western world predominately); and perhaps things will really have to yang out before they can yin back; it would seem to be that way if we look at the current course of our upcoming political choices. What a strange exercise this all is. Perhaps I'll shave my head and do a Buckminster.

My apologies to Stefan Stenud for plagiarizing his commentary, but I like his inward take on Chapter 12. My emphasis is in bold, which is what I was getting at, I think. A true quest begins and ends within ourselves. As he says What the eyes show us may very well be illusions, but what we feel inside our bellies is for real. And then at that, even what we feel inside our bellies is only real for us. We may fear something that someone else may not fear. It all comes back to Mind, doesn't it? His commentary: This chapter obviously continues the reasoning of the previous one. The 11th chapter's theme of emptiness is followed by this chapter's praise of moderation. The five colors in the Chinese tradition are green, red, yellow, white, and black. The five tones of the Chinese musical scale are C, D, E, G, and A. The five flavors are sweet, bitter, salty, sour, and pungent. This division into five is likely to have come from the Chinese concept of the five elements: water, fire, wood, metal, and earth. In ancient China it was believed that everything in the world was made up of these five materials. This can be compared to the old Greek elements, which were four: fire, earth, air, and water. Lao Tzu warns against any form of excess. A multitude of colors is chaotic, straining for the eyes to watch, and not a pretty sight. Any artist would agree. Similarly, all the instruments in the orchestra playing at once should not go on for long. It works in a crescendo, but rarely elsewhere. A skilled chef limits the number of flavors on a dish, or none of them becomes delightful. Disciplined moderation is a key to great art of whatever genre. Less is more. This is not only true for art, but for life in general. If we stimulate ourselves with noise, excitement, and hurried action, then our minds start to boil and reason escapes them. There are moments when intensity is unavoidable, maybe also cherished, but they should be few, and there should be generous pauses between them. Not only does excess of this kind confuse the mind, but it dulls it, too. Adventures lose their appeal when they become routine. Nothing is so exhilarating that we can do it constantly without getting bored. Any thrill needs to be exotic. The more familiar it gets, the less of a thrill it becomes. That's the practical reason for avoiding gluttony of any kind. Precious objects, no matter how tempting, should not lead our steps. They are just things. If we allow them to control our lives, we are sure to choose paths that have the least to do with what we need. Of true and lasting value is what happens inside of us, so a step towards anything else can only take us farther away from it. A true quest both begins and ends within ourselves. Every other direction is a roundabout. The BellyThe sage stays within, caring for the needs of his belly instead of striving for what his eyes can see. This refers not only to making sure of getting food, before searching for other delights. In the Eastern tradition, the stomach is regarded as far more than the location of one's intestines. It's the seat of personal resources, even awareness of sorts. The stomach is the center of the human body. Traditionally, the belly is also the center of personal power. Of course, this is quite accurate from a medical standpoint, since the stomach processes the food and extracts the nutrition and energy we need to survive. The old Chinese teaching also tells us that inside the belly is the major source of the vital breath, the life force ch'i (also spelled qi). See more about the vital breath in my comments on chapter 10. According to this tradition, the center of the stomach is tan t'ien (also spelled dantian), the red rice field, from which great energy emerges. To stimulate the flow of life force within yourself, you need to focus on this center and act according to its impulses. So, when Lao Tzu says that we should attend to our belly, instead of what our eyes can see, he also means that we should make sure to stay centered. Focusing on the belly keeps you grounded and collected. It's how to guard your integrity and get to know yourself properly. When our eyes trick us to forget what our bellies tell us, our minds get lost and our bodies are sure to suffer. Lao Tzu reminds us to get our priorities right. In doing so, we get to know ourselves and stay true to what we really are. What the eyes show us may very well be illusions, but what we feel inside our bellies is for real. © Stefan Stenudd.

And how we see objects on the outside is totally contingent on our conditionings. We can never see things the same way, so we must factor in our conditioning in the interpretation. A terrorist to one is a martyr to another. As to opendao's quoted translation, why do the 5 colors blind a person's eye? Must the colors all be seen at once (in which case that would be 'white', as all colors are reflected, like snow blindness.) Or is it merely the fact that our sensory perception is so limited and the colors we see, reflected light in the ultra-violet spectrum. are merely a small representation of all the colors that are out there that we cannot even imagine? The illusiveness of it all! I went to a zoo once where you could look through a scope of some sort and see how a bat sees the world - in neon green. whose world is 'realer', the bats our ours? and are there beings on a different or more subtle scale with more refined senses? I still think that to place a definition on anything, call it a color, or middle C on a scale, or eating a pickle - can be looked at as the elimination of all other colors, sounds, tastes. Limitation, to me, is the operative word. Just imagine how many other buddha-lands there must be! I've always felt that the most beautiful sound in a concert is the sound of total silence and anticipation when the conductor raises his baton. The potential is limitless. Everything beyond that is limitation of potential, capturing any one tonal value. Are any of our translators merely talking about balance here? Or is there more involved? Sure, too much of anything is not a good thing. I just think it's going a lot deeper than that.

Hi Adamjgraff - so glad you're here. I look forward to seeing your input on the threads.

I wonder if all of us pay attention to the merit part of this wonderful formula. How utterly calming this is, knowing that there is no 'trying' and all things will come to pass in their right season - including buddhahood. I've noticed, even on our wonderful forum, that people will cling to 'I am just perfect the way I am' but discount the necessity of riding the ox on our own behavior. Yes, we are perfect just the way we are at any given moment - but that perfection doesn't necessarily mean boddhisatva-hood. It may just mean that we are in the right place at the right time, with the right mindset, given the causes and conditions that have brought us to this point. We may be stuck in this very place unless we do something to morph our own causes and conditions - for eons and eons. Expansion doesn't happen on its own, IMO. If that were the case, all people would be realized buddhas and the only variable would be the illusion of time. But Aho! Perhaps we are all buddhas in various states of realization. Contingent on our causes and conditions. Urobouros strikes once again.

No samsaric rebirth?

Undelineated; before Word. Beyond relativity. Noumenon. My head whirls when I think of all the relativity that our senses are unable to perceive. how many other dimensions there are within the realm of phenomenon. And yet I can't help but think of the realm prior to relativity as the Original Template for all realms of phenomenon. The oak is in the acorn. The double rainbow reminds me of 'as above, so below'. Our relative manifestations a product of the Pure Essence and the product of the subsequent contortions and conditionings.

This corresponds directly with the 'Maven' entity I was introduced to in a meditation, the Chinese girl I spoke of in post #72. I didn't know what the word meant, had to look it up. Maven has now morphed into a beautiful huge jaguar, which is very aligned with my shamanic path. I agree with you. I think if the entity introduces things you have to later look up, there is an 'other' there.

Thank you, mostly_empty - and yes, they probably come up against the paperwork thing all the time. I can't imagine a child's family with Hanhart syndrome not having the SSI help. What a break this is. I feel so good about all this.

Hi Mostly_Empty - I'm so sorry I didn't acknowledge your wonderful response until this evening - for some reason my notification thingie isn't working, and I don't get notified when someone responds to a thread. Your advice is very helpful and I have copy and pasted it into an email to Teresa Foden, Jaiden's mom. There is a wonderful update on all of this. It is beautiful synchronicity. When Jaiden was born, he was born in a specific hospital up in Akron Ohio where children with Hanhart Syndrome and similar deformities are born, there is a specialized unit apparently. They were in touch with the Teresa Foden for several years, then all contact was lost. Just this week, out of the blue, one of the directors of the hospital unit contacted Teresa by mail, saying that the hospital was going to be sponsoring a summer camp specifically for kids with Hanhart and similar disorders, and would Jaiden be interested in attending? She called him, and during this conversation, she told him that she had collected over $1,300 (just from our gofundme site alone, 95% of donors being us Bums) toward the purchase of a trike to be adapted to Jaiden's physical needs. He says that he is in touch with a veteran's organization in Akron which does exactly that - they've never done a trike before, it's always been in the adaptation of donated two wheelers. But he told Teresa that in this particular case, they will come in with any additional money that is needed and see to it that Jaiden is riding an adaptive trike by summer. They will come in with any further money that is needed for the trike, plus see to it that the adaptation is done. Sometimes the 'hand of god' or whatever you want to call it just astounds me. This is one of those times. We have truly made a change in someone's life; this boy will be able to do something other than just watch TV and play with Legos on the floor. I am humbled by the generosity of all of you, whether it be your money or your time researching. I love you. Thank you, Barbara

I'd love it if I could find somebody who has had a similar progression of their kundalini activity. I know there are plenty of us here, with probably just as many different K-experiences. I've been K-active for about 10 years, plus or minus. My K-activity has been a steady progression, taking its sweet time within each chakra which has been representative of an area of life in which there was work to do, i.e. heart chakra, power chakra, etc. Then it went through a phase where it was no longer in my chakras, but instead liked to sit either extremely hot at the back of my head, or divided in two in my shoulder blades. The 'pressure' of the activity trying to break through a chakra was gone, and only the extreme heat remained in the above two mentioned places. Now, for the past 3 or 4 months, it's right up at the very top of my head under the crown chakra, feeling very much like it wants to blast through. The heat is gone, but the pressure is sure there again, but an upward pushing. It's constant. Has anybody had a similar progression? Or am I just developing a really bad head cold?