Rara

All of the above. I too and a bit of a Chuang Tzu fan but I think that boils down to my slightly cheeky nature, and I love good literature with imagery and metaphors I actually spent so much time seeking some sort of master-figure, and was let down time and time again. I wouldn't go to someone just because they advertise Daoist teachings, Tai Chi, Qigong etc etc. Sometimes I look at the guys on Youtube at Wudang and think that would be an awesome life. Other times I think they look too organised and ritualistic and that it probably wouldn't work out well if I ever went. I've found a happy medium in reading a few pages of my books every day, and having a good Tai Chi class to go to once a week, then practice that daily. Interestingly, the teacher doesn't call herself a master, and doesn't really talk about Daoism (she has only mentioned it once when talking about some contextual stuff) She is lovely, and a great teacher, but has no interest in being anything else for her students. After all, we all just end up having to leave the class and get back to life afterwards, and that life is Dao anyway.

I've decided to come back to this thread as it was on my mind. I took a break from meditating for a while and came back recently when there were a few stressful things to deal with. I sat, just for 10 minutes to begin with and decided to count my breaths, but I realised that this made things quite difficult, because was I really feeling and observing the breath, or was I concentrating too hard in focusing on the number? I found that dropping the strict rules and opting just for feeling the breath worked best. Or similarly, as Silent Thunder said, having baths with sea salt and essential oils relaxed and cleared my tensions very well. Taoism is about simplicity after all. Sometime we do just need to chill out more.

@Marblehead Great I was reading the introductions to both the philosophers and they are pretty clear about Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu being actual people with jobs, having written the works etc, so I just wanted to see some opinions here. Of course, the other translations I've read have had introductions that have been a little less sure, so with that and the "very easy" read in comparison to others, I felt it was good to ask!

@Marblehead Thanks, so are they genereally considered accurate enough? I just did a bit of reading up on them and they seem to be generally approved with the odd-criticism.

I second that. Your post was really thorough

Sure. We can't have a world where we don't market things to each other, otherwise we wouldn't function. Just finding "sincerity", how Owledge put it, is hard. Mainly because our species CAN only truly look out for ourselves. Even martyrdom has a selfish-motive to it, as silly as it is! That's a strange story about the door-to-door seller though. Sometimes it can just be incompetence though. Simply a lack of communication from the field to the office...the fact that the company exists is comforting to hear. Keep your eye on you bank balance though, you never know

The people I recruit in my job are these people. We play this silly game of "Hi, how are you? We have an exciting campaign etc etc". The truth is, I really don't care. Their response is always "I love being out there, engaging with the public. I'm a positive yadda yadda ya. Very hard working yadda yadda ya. Love aiming for targets yadda yadda ya". But it's all business. All it takes is for a tiny thing to upset them then we see the darker side of their personalities. I also came back from a conference last weekend featuring lots of Youtube vloggers. It's all narcissism - pull expressive faces at a camera and come at it with energy. Once there is a good following, companies endorse them so then it all become stories like "this is what I believe in, these products are genuinely great etc." Which may or may not be true. But what IS true is that they wouldn't do it with so much passion or even at all if they weren't being paid. There are a lot of exceptions, but I'm speaking on the whole. The career is known as being an "influencer". In other words, payment for influencing people. Just the same way as our staff "promote and sell" stuff. So I would say there is little sincerity, but the illusion works and keeps customers engaged and they get a dig out of all this corporate nonsense anyway. It's all about competition and rising to the top in this life, and having a winning team etc. That's just how we have been engineered. But that's all fine. I'm a part of it, I think we all have to be to an extent. But we can try our best to limit it as best we can. Like now, for instance. Business is quiet...am I being proactive and hunting more clients? Nope. Just writing this then I'm popping out for a walk by the canal and training my Tai Chi

@Owledge Gosh. I understand the predicament fully though as I can only really see those two as options: slave away with the rest of the world or become empty without any of it. But the Tao teaches us that the pleaseure is to be found, and in moments, I do find this. But in moments. I've gone back to the cushion recently. That helps somewhat, I must keep it up! All the best to you.

@Owledge Do you find less and less motivation do engage with people and things? Moreso as your spirituality increases? Is it weighing you down? It is me, so I'm just looking to grasp whether we are in the same place here. "Tiring" is a good word. I've been working in marketing and events but my Taoist practices began just at the point where I should have been "chasing those career goals". I am really struggling to keep up with all that now, especially as I know how superficial it all is. I just don't have the energy for all this petty fake smile shit and obsession with FB and Twitter....but it's all I know. My stuggle is to undo all this but my only fear is if I am "myself", I'll lose the job and stuggle to get a new one due to lack of experience and care. I think the words aspergers or bi-polar would be popular phrases to be thrown at us. Maybe we are just fish out of water? Idk...

I have a very good tea merchant over in Leeds in England. I had some a couple of years ago but haven't in a while. Thanks for this thread, it'll be on the shopping list for next time.

You can meditate any time, any place, anywhere. If you meditate whilst crying, you'll probably find you won't cry as much in the long-term.

That gave me a chuckle. Thank you

Same here. I'm simply continuing to work on at least understanding Taoist teachings as best as I can (whether they be questionable to me or not) Like "chi", we relate it to energy etc. I can understand all that on a scientific level. And how you describe it is just that, but with a lovely opening to say that it therefore applies to everything and how we will eventually become a part of something else, which to me, is spiritual. Would my dead body change the behaviour of someone or thing that chooses to eat it? Most probably. Just like I feel quite different after a beef burger to say, a salad. While the result on the outside looks to be merely scientific, spiritual beliefs translate this into a holistic mind, body AND spirit explanation. We all know that religions advise or even order us what foods etc we should avoid. Or HOW it is slaughtered or cooked also makes huge significant impact. The phenomenons on the feeling of energy, emotions and consciousness in general is just simply unjustified when put in to words. The scientific formulas can map out and explain how this all works, but it will never be the same as the experience itself

Hello! So I love the many stories in Zhuangzi that talk about Robber Chih. Without the book at hand, just my phone, I decided to Google search and read some again. I ended up with, what I think is, Chapter 29. We only have earlier chapters in this forum but I don't think it's neccessary to start a chapter thread as it's more the character I want to talk about. So I will begin in summary and see where we end up, and I guess we can reference chapters if we like Mainly for me, Robber Chih is a wonderful character for his honesty and loyalty to himself. He knows what he is, under no illusion, and is quick to point out the hypocrisy of the "high class". The character also brings me comfort - we live in a world run by the high and mighty saying what is and isn't moral, duping us into fear and chasing noble status. "Criminals" are led to feel guilty for petty crimes (though many don't - I hope to differentiate between what we should feel remorse for a bit later) I am not perfect, by definition of the word, but I am perfect by my understanding of it. Robber Chih has his way...his perfection. I like to tie this in to the Taoist teaching of "returning to your own nature", and also, neuroscience experiments into the "illusion of free will". If we inherit thoughts and our subjective nature due to our genes, upbringing and social environments, it can only be natural to keep within these perameters, otherwise we begin a struggle to do things that we don't really want to do, nor have evolved to do! Discuss

And with all the best intentions, but indirectly, that spiritual element is greater in what you say than some other atheistic or physician views. Which I'm down with We can take the chemical/biological part on board in identifying that when we die, our states change and therefore eventually become parts of other things. How much of that has a spiritual definition is debateable. Some might say this therefore changes the state of things on a constant basis. And therefore is this not "Tao"? Is that a spiritual transmutation or a chemical transformation? Or both? I'm not looking for an answer, I just feel that is all worth considering.

Sure, with good natural observation, may I suggest there is a "logical" spiritual element to what you're saying? It seems that way

I went to class yesterday after an argument and I felt broken for it. I've taken the day off and isolated myself today. I figured that I'm exhausted (have been dealing with some difficult personal circumstances) Time to reflect and let this mood pass.

How do you define transmutation, MH? I'm curious to know how "literal" your answer may be...

I think this is quite an important message throughout the Book of Zhuangzi. I believe there are other sections that talk of those imitating the Way or trying to live the life of a hermit and ultimately failing. I mentioned The Big Concealment from Chapter 11 earlier in this thread and he says to Cloud Chief something along the lines of "it's too late for you". I'm starting to feel that this is a reference to saving one's soul and some (perhaps Robber Chih) just can't get there. Sometimes I wonder how far gone I may be. I practice Tai Chi now and am back to wandering in nature and meditating. You know, just in case Karma is a thing Maybe my progress will be stored.

Despite Joe's annoyingness from time to time, he knows his stuff. Wing Chun now for me is trained for tradition, almost like a dance. For effective fighting, I have begun Muay Thai and some traditional wrestling and I already feel a better fighter after 3 months than I did after 5 years of Wing Chun. I do Wu Style Tai Chi for stretching, balance and internal wellbeing, nothing more.

Yep. If you're a Taoist or Tai Chi master, broadcasting yourself wouldn't really be top priority.

Modern day weaponary - good answer. Can we really judge an ancient martial art's effectiveness when it's up against something so evolved?

I tried this last night but just got tired muscles from it :/

Sure, it's not all bad. A beer-bender sorted my stiff back out one weekend!

Oh really? Haha. No, afraid not but I'm just taking a laid back approach. If I care too much it makes it worse so I'm just allowing it to do its thing. I eventually will settle down, the key is to not stress and make it worse. Gerard's points above pretty much some me up though. Conditioned as a chronic worker and worrier...I like greasy food too. Gently I'm making improvements but it's difficult to do "alone" considering my line of work appears to promote mindless irrationality and so on. But I was already involved when I became a Taoist and my next stage is obviously to stop making the same mistakes and find a way out!