Rara

Sure. Last time I was with the local Buddhists, they still didn't believe in a God. Still, they are a religion.

Cool I always learnt that Taoism is a pantheistic belief but intersting post here!

Further into the derail, as I've spoken about before, there is neuroscientific research to suggest that this is an illusion and that such decisions are already made before we are consciously aware of them. So if the brain has gone somewhere we don't want it to go, and we snap back round to where we do want it to go, perhaps this move was inevitable anyway. Hmmmm....

Everything's ok I think what youbare trying to say is "how can I believe in something that isn't there to believe in?" ...please correct me if I'm wrong...

A lack of belief in God...but therefore a belief that there is no God. Because you cannot prove it, surely this is your belief system? I know, I know, we will go round in circles with this one. ... On circular logic - maybe it is a fad...though I like to think it came to me. Maybe I've picked it up along the way somehow...however, I certainly see it as a good way of describing my "understanding". And yeah, sure death only really means death. That's all that happens. But my point is that, as I cannot control when I am born, or when I die (bar suicide but of course, we won't go there ... I actually think I'd be incapable of this also haha) This says to me that something is dictating my life. Whether it's God or just my brain, I am not bigger than either of them. I lack control...I just do what my brain tells me to do. I'm not free from that...

PS Marblehead, the above is why I bat for the "atheism as a religion" team...because it is still a form of belief. That said, I could accuse you of being agnostic for your slight mystical curiosity. That, or you're not really an atheist and couldn't care less. Then I could label you apathetic. But whatever....I'm apathetic, sometimes agnostic, other times atheist. Depends what mood I'm in. I can also firmly say that I have many firm beliefs from the "well duh" category. My main one here is consciousness and/more superior forces that are beyond my power. I have a conscience, I can't help that fact. I will die one day...I cannot stop that happening. So in this regard, there is a God, right? Or Tao...whatever the term is, it's all interchangeable. Ask me if there is a God though, and I will often say hell no. Or more appropriately - "depends what you mean by God"

Let's not forget, if we have an agenda, we can use any kind of scientific evidence as a way to support a biased argument. Even if it's quite untrue. Look at how marijuana is portrayed in the media. Science "proves" it causes schizophrenia. I look around and find very few schiz pot smokers, if any. I find just as many schiz non-pot smokers. Swings and roundabouts, but again I must use this term - it's all subjective to what one wants out of it. If somebody wants something a certain way, they will always argue for it, regardless. And if science proves it, then great, there's one for the argument! This is why I like what was said about religion, I think by Darkstar. The fact that it is always desired by man anyway. Whether it is as extreme as worshiping a man in the sky or being a Tao bum...we still desire to fill some for of void. In other words, we all just need something to do.

Sounds like Jeremy Clarkson has read the Tao Te Ching.

Well, what I meant is more the ghost of Zhuangzi shaking his head at organised religion. It's probably for another thread but his words don't appear supportive of structures and dogma to me. I don't dispute that there are some valuable things to learn from institutions, and I haven't been to Taoist temples. I have only seen things on Youtube (mainly Wudang stuff) Yes, I have learnt many things from this, as well as my time spent dipping in to Buddhist temples. In this day and age, religion can be great refuge for people that have lost their way. I just believe Zhuangzi is saying that if we didn't lose the way in the first place, religion, dogma, rules and the like would not be needed.

@darkstar Thanm you for taking the time to write all this, and I think all you have said is very clear! Please give me some time to digest and I may come back to this thread if I have anything further to say but really, you have pointed me in a good direction here As for the butterfly thread, no, I haven't been following actually but will make time to have a read soon.

I have been practicing mindfulness and "living in my belly" more seriously recently and I am benefiting greatly. This morning for example, I "Kung Ku'd" my washing up, breakfast, washing and putting out of clothes and cleaning of the whole house. I then did my kung fu forms nice and slowly and finished with some footwork and punching drills. I use the term "kung fu'd" a) because it's funny (my instructor used this phrase the other day and it just resonated with me) and b ) to best describe a state of relaxation, focus and deep natural breathing. While my untrained self would have been a scatty mess (and therefore, all of the above probably would have taken me a day to complete) I have got this all done efficiently in four and a half hours! Now the only thing that didn't quite go as well was my rounding it all off with a seated meditation. I sat and gathered my posture and began breathing. I was thinking I would last 20-30 minutes but I only lasted 10! Why? Because suddenly my nose started itching. I managed to deter myself from sneezing but as I continued to focus on the breath, I then noticed my nose filling up with mucus. "Snort, snort" and keep on going....nope. Now the nose was starting to run and to trickle down on to my lip. "Ok that's enough now" I thought, and I opened my half-shut eyes, reached for the tissue in my pocket and then dealt with my nose. So my question to you...as a Taoist in seated-meditation, what do you do if you need to sneeze? Perhaps I should have allowed it to happen and used that experience as a part of my seated-meditation. I guess I was trying to be "too Zen" by ignoring it and trusting it would go away. Would a Taoist be less strict and accept the sneeze? Thoughts please. Much love x

Yeah...mine was kinda ticklish and distracting...and runningbover my mouth haha. I couldn't take no more.

I'm not entirely sure if this is totally relevant what I am about to say because I haven't read what you are referring to. But going by the title, surely precision is key to mastery? How can we not seek precision? Understanding a teaching correctly...for example, in martial arts, cannot be succesful without precision of a strike or form. And the butcher and the Oxen in the Zhuangzi... precision was key. The method, was about feeling and meditation I'm sure, but we have to learn somehow. In the west, grasping the concept in books is a big part of how we process this! I am curious to know what you think to this

I agree that having distinction within Taoism is somewhat barking up the wrong tree. I have often said that I feel that Zhuangzi is shaking his head at religious Taoism. But your second point, I'm not sure. If I am to learn, or "undo" a lot of learning so to speak, I see the value in at least understanding Zhuangzi's message as correctly as possible. Otherwise it is just my already conditioned mind making its own interpretation.

The mods? I guess Deci believed in them then! Damn.

I think he was a dude that wore no shoes, danced in the street and swore at cops.

True, I've been thinking in black and white for too long. This study is helping me break the cycle.

Well, provided that Lao Tzu was a person... So Confucious existed later, then Chuang Tzu? Can you point me in the direction of some reference points for their eras? (If they are not wikipedia, that is) But yes, I am curious to know how much Confucianism works with Taoism. Also, do you believe Lao Tzu to be more of a conservative kinda guy?

*Whispers* The illuminati. They're watching us all.

I always say the tidal wave is the yang, the still pond is the yin. The whole is water... So, do we practice meditation because there is naturally more ferocious energy in the air from our daily lives? Probably. So should we always be in a calm, stress free environment? Probably not. Every now and then, I think explosive chaos can be a wonderful thing.

I thought you were a mod, haha. Who are the mods?

Indeed! My choice of quotation marks on "democracy" was an attempt to make that point My latter point was yes, because of the fact that we do have less of a democracy than the people think, it does make protests difficult to achieve results. No disrespect to protesters, just there is need for a change in how we are governed in general.

Zhongni = Confucious, yes? I'm interested in how the characters are used here. It appears that Confucious is the "go to man" here. Can it be argued that Zhuangzi is using Confucious as a voice to make the statement that perhaps Confucious became a disciple of Zhuangzi? As Confucianism sort of opposes Taoism, I'm toying with a theory that Confucious found the Way later in life...

Sure. People can gas away until they run out of oxygen and then it all dies away...

I know! Remember when William Hague did this and everybody thought "woah, he could have been running our country". There is a line in TTC about this, I'm pretty sure. Will have to check, but something about the best ruler being the one not gunning for the job? Because for most, it's about winning a populatity contest, not to actually do what is best for the people.