Rara

Reminds me of the Karate Kid. Mr Miyagi really wound that kid up, didn't he? You gotta be cruel to be kind as they say. A sage might be impartial, but to an outsider or the "learner", this looks like they are being a meanie. Unless they are a bit more tactful and not straight up rude So, we shall let our person Bs throw their tantrums if they want to. The answer is still "No".

Sorry, I didn't explain clearly. The loss of the family member fear was more about them wanting to argue, to provoke a reaction of seeming like I at least care or agree with their viewpoint. The loss would come from a fallout due to differences in opinion. Not that I want the fallout to happen, this is more a case of this other person doing the whole "if you're not going to be supportive then don't bother talking to me". Now, I'm person A here and they are B. I could smile and nod at their opinion about the way they are living and going about things, and the way they are treating me. I could just be there to listen, therefore showing lack of interest. I could highly oppose them and tell them how I really feel. Each option still comes with their relative negative outcomes. RE your point about slavery. I do agree that there are cognitive, behavioural techniques that can help us deal with terrible situations. Of course, meditation is one. But some of us are born into places where we can access this information on how to put this into practice very easily - others aren't. I mean, I wonder how many slaves end up becoming sages. How much access do they have to wisdom or "masters"? Surely it is a matter fortune that I can live comfortably in England and have such a great support network that can help me on my way. And surely it is not as fortunate to be born into slavery. No matter how much we can tell ourselves that we are ok if in a slave position, it doesn't mean it is true. If anything, one is kidding themselves if they were to deny that there is a better life out there for them...

I like this. Closer to a more practical explanation I think. Steady persistence of tolerating (OP) person B's shortcomings. Not to say that A will just let B carry on, but chip away at forming a wholesome relationship that works for the two of them and grows better over time. Rather than just throwing the oven mits down on the floor and walking out for good!

No problem. The convo goes where it goes I only stuck it in the TTC section as it refers loosely to the sage described in the text. If you feel this should be somewhere else, that's cool.

I wouldn't like to let anything bother me...but when it's family trying to get a reaction out of me, it's kind of different. I suppose there is a slight fear of losing that family member one way or another. I don't see how there is a problem with having that natural worry. That said, interestingly, in this other situation, that family member still seeks advice from me for help. Always refuses to then take my advice but still comes back for it lol. I am a bit fed up with things going round in circles though! RE Vinegar tasters - Yes I've studied it for a while. I do appreciate its lesson but the reason behind this thread is that I don't see things as black and white as this, especially as some scenarios don't make it so easy. Like one who, karmically if you will, has been born into a terrible life. As a crude stereotype in Africa, starving, perhaps facing rape each day. I think it's a tad unfair to apply the vinegar tasters universally when someone as comfortable as me, who has the freedom to type this from his bed on a Sunday morning, can appreciate the painting much more.

Thank you for sharing. I wonder if he would have gone it alone of you hadn't planted the seed in the first place though. I know nagging gets nothing done though! Haha. But yes, funny. When I had my anger issuses, my gf never tried to stop me yelling and hitting walls. I just saw her upset and that's what made me change. I didn't want that. But then you hear of some people who's friends push their alcoholic buddies into rehab. I don't have any stats on how effective this approach is though.

Sounds like answers to me!

Yes haha, perhaps! But you see what I'm saying. Now, what if you can't divorce? A is the 16 y/o daughter or B. B goes on to beat her regularly...especially if she doesn't do the dishes! Will tolerance/cultivation make her a sage? Or will standing up for herself, telling pa where to go make her a sage? Shouldn't she get some recognition for doing the dishes, rather than a punch?

Wow! What caused Joe to change...radically, if you don't mind me asking?

@Daeluin I'm not convinced. In a practical sense. While being reactive does cause friction, like fighting fire with fire, being placid hardly works any better. I have found engagements in which I have remained calm and yeilding have resulted in the next person getting more annoyed because I don't appear to care. There is another option...to smile and nod. Quite hard of you're not in agreement... A: I enjoy looking at the flowers B: I hate the flowers. Why do you have to interrupt me when I'm watching the TV! Shut up A: Smiles and nods The whole exchange and reason for the two to be sat together in the first place seems utterly pointless.

The question now seems to be...what is the nature of the sage? Seems to me that it is an evolution of mind...maturity at its finest.

Yes, so there is some sort of lecture at least? I'm trying to define the relationship between acceptance and having some sort of desire to change someone. Is it one, or the other, or a bit of both?

I think there is a lot in what you say I'm not convinced that there is 100% no desire to change someone though. When we enter relationships, or have kids, there always has to be an ounce of expectation...or wanting the best for them. We can let them be who they are a lot of the time. That is love and allows growth in my eyes, but an element of us nurturing and protecting means sometimes giving someone a stern lecture at least, if not yelling. Even the choice of finding a partner/soul mate/spouse...however we want to look at it. We find that we always end up settling with someone that we are compatible with. We don't seek out people we don't have anything in common with. My point being, we wouldn't go and deliberately go on a date with, say, someone that has been married three times before and just been released from jail for battering his third wife. With this info at hand, even if we got through the date, we wouldn't then end up going through a full on relationship and marriage, accepting them for who they are - if they hadn't changed at all. The natural condition for the most lenient of us would be to tell them that we could give the relationship a go, but "if you lay a finger on me, I'm walkin'". An extreme situation, but you know what I mean.

Nice!

Yes, now calmness is very important. But I cannot say this is the same as not taking any action. In martial arts, remaining calm when being attacked is vital for clarity of the situation and being able to strike acurately. Regardless, the reality of the situation is that the attacker is trying to harm you, so in return, your intent needs to be to give them a firm lesson back in return. Still calm. Still compassionate. But the fact of the matter is that you need to have the intent to win. Now, the A and B scenario isn't a life or death situation, and I do think that A can do more to cultivate their own selves and handle things a lot better. But even being calm, A can still tell B exactly what is required to make their relationship work better...even if it does require some assertive yelling? I've seen your DM. Will reply when I get a chance.

Yep, chances are in the heat of the moment, one will go for what they learned in training and get their wrist cut because the knife attacker panicks and starts flapping. Lol to the Gracie story!

...just to add... I used to interpret "desire" as a bad thing. But maybe it's very much needed as a stepping stone to enlightenment. Perhaps it was this misinterpretation that confused me. I used to have anger issues. When I stepped outside of myself and just let the anger flow, I could observe it...and when it was all out of my system I would sit and laugh at myself, thinking "well that was entertaining". Prior, I used to believe that I couldn't help myself and that anger was a part of me. Due to that belief, I remained angry, violent, and upset a lot of people that I loved. Lesson: Desire, anger, addiction...none of these are bad things. They can only aid us. The danger is one not being able to see how these can be used pragmatically for self-improvement!

I like this a lot and to back track, the OP did ask if person A was actually a sage, which now I realise they cannot be...but yes, none the less, could well be on their way. A and B are young, developing, and still having to make decisions about how to move forward. I really like your twist that A could be grandparent and B could be a 6 year old granddaughter. Notice how we wouldn't typically invert that? That A is younger and B is older? This is now becoming a more obvious outlook to me...maturity. Being rational with clear vision...something that we all develop over time. And time being the beneficial factor. How many 6 year old sages do we imagine there are? Probably none. 60 year old sages? Perhaps a fair few. But at an earlier age, we have the desire to cultivate. We can't help that, and why should we? And when cultivation is done and one is full/content, then they are a sage. I think I am beginning to understand. Thank you

Yes, that is what I was looking for... Desire... Drive to do things. As much as I understand Wu Wei in this context, it bats against the idea of having any specific goal. Which is fair, sages whouldn't concern themselves with goals...that is a common understanding amongst Taoists. It throws expectations out, and as you say, no real need to make friends, hobbies etc. Yet can still participate while being content. This is something I associate with the older generation. That stereotype of grandparents that have been together for 40 years and are now content. No need (or probably want) for a sex life or to be glued to each other....or no jealousy issues. But they will go for walks, have a seat on the bench and just marvel at the view in front of them. Pure harmony, no effort. But maybe in my scenario, there is work still to be done on both parts that will lead to this. A and B are young, trying to co-exist...who knows, maybe 30 years down the line, they both are sages following years and years of internal work, and work with each other. Maybe there is the answer...A obviously still has desires, hence why he sticks around with B. And these desires we all have...but over time, they will diminish naturally, should we let them.

Echoes of manitou...there is practicality in the words you speak

Hehe, well, he/she wouldn't waste time with TV. But if he/she was sat with B watching it because, I dunno, maybe spending time with each other is healthy? B is the one that wants to watch it, of course. Lol, I dunno, better stop with the TV talk before I completely lose the plot. Interesting simplicity to your answer. A cleans, cooks and cultivates. B goes out, works, socialises and stresses etc. At least B comes back to a clean home and food and A is happy either way. There is a similar account in Zhuangzi, talking about Leih Tzu. I forget which chapter, but he threw all his books away and dedicated the rest of his days doing the housework for his wife.

Thanks for your response. Yes, I kjow what you (both) are saying but my query in the OP arises merely from a flaw that I see in this overall description of what the sage is like. I have asked Kajenx another question in response to their post so perhaps that might make things clearer Having an answer to that will most probably bring us one step closer to rounding this up!

Thank you! Since joining this forum, I have come to realise that you are one to learn from and this interview reinforces this! Clear explanations, rational with no superstitious crap. I will need to read this again as some things you speak about I know nothing about but the majority of things here bring me relief, knowing that there are many things we are on the same wavelength with. You hold the elaborate answers to what I have dipped in to

Hehe, A certainly does this. B's ego still isn't diminishing much. Maybe a little at a time though. Progress is progress.

Good question...I will answer bit by bit. 1. A helps B because they co-exist in a household. In fact A is equally helping themselves out too. Just feels it would be nice to have a little help around the place. When B does help, B makes a big point of it, not even acknowledging that A is always putting the work in. So... 2. It's a big kettle of fish helping everybody else in the world that is not as fortunate. Surely A can co-habit AND do their bit for the world? 3. Correct tha A is happier overall anyway. And maybe they do pity B's attitude. But isn't it normal for someone else to pull their weight? Why shouldn't they get frustrated? I wouldn't say A is jealous of B...just observational of B's shortcomings.