Rara

I disagree. Goes back to my question a few posts up on decision making. If the sage could clean up OR watch TV, do they make a choice? If so, what prompts this choice?

This is true. I have found that I always attract the same types/have the exact same fallouts. What changed? My thought process and practice. I figured that I should settle and work with my current one as otherwise, I would be back at square one again with another. At least two can learn from each other!

Nice answer, and yes, the scenario is very detailed and specific. I understand with what you are saying RE trying to pigeon hole a few lines from TTC, so thanks for your elaboration. So your stand is that it is all within person A and their cultivation. My question to you, is if the emotional state would not change regardless of what was going on (doing dishes, watching TV, playing football) does this mean that a sage doesn't make any decisions? A life fully lacking in purpose? Surely anyone without any purpose or preference in this current world lacks interaction with fellow humans? I mean, if the sage doesn't have a hobby, then they will have nothing in common with anyone and thus, no friends...

I missed all this... ...what, where, when??

Hehe, sure Of course, I was talking if one had a knife and the victim was unarmed. If you get attacked by THOSE guys on the way home, I suggest...well, do you own a jetpack?

A lot of the time, it's out of tradition. If I train with a pole, for example, in a real life situation you gotta think that the motions applied could easily be transferred over to say, picking up a lead pipe or pool cue. Guns, well, I guess....RUUUUUUN! In zig-zags. Just effin' run!

Yes definitely...never, EVER go close quarters when opponent has a knife.

I finally finished the book a few days ago. I was thoroughly entertained throughout Now, I've realised something due to things that are repeated several times in the book. Of course, Chuang Tzu wasn't a Taoist as he was a pioneer of bringing the ideas into text. The Taoist came later - us who study the Tao. Ok, let me stop here for a minute. Isn't such study the exact thing that Chuang Tzu was ridiculing all throughout the book? Isn't this what Confucius and many others were doing and just not getting it? The idea of ritual is spoken against yet a lot of us sit in meditation daily as a routine. Many strive for enlightenment, but aren't we just chasing something that isn't there by doing so? A lot of us on the forum get caught up in metaphysics and spiritual ideas/dogma. Is this really being a Taoist? If so, I think that Taoism might be missing the point a little bit. The debates that are had are somewhat pointless in the eyes of Chuang Tzu, right? Do discuss!

And Wing Chun has too many fouls to work in MMA. Self defense...kick em in the nuts!

This is what I've been getting at To hold a philosophy, you would want it to become popular amongst masses of people. How much someone tries to change someone depends on the philosophy, and in Taoism, practitioners aren't too pushy. But still, to an extent, they would wish everyone else to have less ego... Otherwise, what would be the point in engaging in such a practice? If one takes a path, then it has to be right for them. But also for others! You are right, maybe person A wasn't hurt too badly. I was implying that he was hurt because person B only acknowledged when they did a good thing, and didn't even notice when person A did (which was about 90% of the time) Then I guess it is up to person A to cultivate and not get hurt!

I say it's out of context...it's not like you see it as a threat. I'm sure if a guy yelled at you in the street and started approaching you with his fists up, you would react a tad differently!

I know! Been going round in circles with this in my own head! Haha Good answer though, because I cannot see how there can be a right or wrong. And therefore, verses in TTC don't necessarily define the methods that the sage uses....but implies that he has to make informed decisions in a rational, intelligent way.

Ok cool. What, in your opinion,causes change? Or natural change? Do you mean that person B would have to realise their own ego before wanting to make a change to themselves? If so, who will be the one that lets them know they are being hurtful to person A? Is Lao Tzu suggesting that, even if not in this lifetime, all will evenutually be at one with the Tao, so there is no need to change people? Does this mean we should avoid conflict altogether in this scenario? A should walk away from B and just hang out with someone else?

I see what you're saying but I did say IF he was a sage... In the scenario, I'm questioning the method of the particular practice of acceptance and tolerance. Even if person A isn't a sage, he his still practicing the Way of the sage...in order to one day get there... For the sage has returned to his/her true nature, right? A place where all Taoists are on their way to...

Hehe. Now we get deeper. Define harm. Attempting to change someone, to negotiate (as mentioned in a post just above yours) This doesn't sound popular among Taoists, but raising conflict in a way that shows someone of their own shortcomings/faults...they might get hurt by that. But if they can overcome the hurt, and change, and therefore land themselves in a more harmonious relationship in the long run. Can you say this is a bad thing? The job of a teacher is to change someone, after all, right? So if A is a sage, or is wise, and sees a fault in B, why not teach them the better way?

I see what you are saying. Almost, if one attracts a certain type, then they are likely to continue the trend... So how would Lao Tzu's words relate to one in A's situation? If one is struggling to break free from their chains...do you mean to say that their mission may be to not be tolerant, leave and find person C? (The hypothetical ideal housemate that does appreciate A without filling A's ego?)

I also wonder, why A shouldn't attempt to change B. Reasoning, negotiation, and meeting in the middle is a good way to exist, surely? Isn't that how we learn from each other? How will B ever learn not to hurt others if A doesn't step in and tell them his opinion?

My point exactly CD! Why should he feel frustrated/get upset in any way? So are we to think that if A is a sage, he MUST act in a certain way? Even if to an outsider it makes him seem weak/a walkover? Other answers have also said, like you, that the other option is to walk away. If one walks away, does that mean they are not a sage? And if so, does this make them any lesser a person, or lower down in a hierarchy? Surely we are just dealing with decisions... How can we determine which is right or wrong between the sage that "accepts" everything and a non-sage that can't, and so just walks away?

Haha, so I think I know what you mean. But your answer...depends on variables...depends on whether A can be ok with being "walked over". Otherwise, he has to look for other types to hang out with. Either way, doesn't this make Lao Tzu's statements of doing the right thing without expecting reward somewhat pointless?

Thanks Gatito...a PM sounds good. I don't know where you are on the radar but a meet up sounds cool, if not now, one day.

Yes, so an either/or response... Lao Tzu implies that we should be patient and accepting regardless. If A's opinion is that he is being taken advantage of, why should he stick around? But he COULD change his character. But why should he? Which, to you, is the best option?

Thanks for this. Now, I'm thinking, would this happen with anyone in a similar circumstances, would you say?

Sure, and yes internal techniques are all good. Either way that doesn't invite pain But in "external" martial arts, one has to expect to get hit. Quite badly...because someone one the street isn't going to hold back if they have a serious problem with you. I see internal and external martial arts being for two separate purposes. Yet, if an external MA is being learnt, I say it is wise to practice an internal martial art/meditation along with it...

C'mon, so what is he supposed to say? "If you get hit, cry and fall down like a sack of $*!t"??

Haha, same here! But it's true. Conditioning. How many MMA fighters get blasted in the head yet keep focus on their opponent and their hands up? Pain is fine if you're training to use the conditioning. I.e army etc. Being sat in full lotus for hours inviting numbness and pain seems pointless to me. All it does is switch you off to the pain after a while, only to awaken and remember you still have legs that are not designed to be folded up. Meditation should be useful...the meditator should simply expose themselves to internal learning. There's more important things to learn about than how long one can endure self harm