Rara

I'm experiencing pain and stiffness at the moment when I sit in meditation. I'm wondering whether sitting upright with no support just causes tension? Either way, it's very distracting and not too pleasant. When I then consciously slouch I feel better...but then it's like I'm doing more stretching exercises rather than meditating. Simple breath meditation just seems to be harder for me these days than say 6 months to a year ago. Perhaps my back is just shaped differently. Long car journeys in an erect seat also hurts a lot after a couple of hours. Does anybody have any clue as to what this could be? The doctor once said that it's just because I'm used to slouching and that I need to train my back muscles up by doing yoga exercises but since then, I've been more mindful of posture yet still it seems to be a problem.

Just an update. After making an imptovement with more regular mindful practices of pysical activities (meditation, wing chun, stretching etc) , the pain has now come back. I've spent the last week or so barely behind the laptop (on purpose as an.experiment) So I'm ruling that out as a cause. What I think it could be is my daily back pack wearing. I think I could well be tiring the muscles by exercising them too much!

I think this is where I feel conflicted. I work in entertainment! So days (like today) I wish to have stayed in and meditated. Imagine that, going AWOL only to be found locked in the house in full lotus. That will be a funny day if it ever comes!

Is this why we should "kill Buddha" if he arises in meditation...?

Nicely put! Imagine if all on earth were sages...that would be very interesting indeed! But yeah, this has made me think. So perhaps the meditative training that we do doesn't make us "good" per se, but impartial, as also mentioned by Lao Tzu. Keeps us away from petty worldly affairs...i.e the perception of good nd bad...

And Moses? I really like that guy's story... Thanks for this input. I will look into it...would explain a lot. I just apologised recently to a friend as when I was "tuned in" I heard a "message" telling me that he and his fiance were reunited from a past life and that they are destined to be together. She turned out to be a fraud after his money! I truly believed my intuition and was fooled badly...

So I'm not going mad. There are actually a bunch of people deceiving the world and giving false hope etc? In episode 1 for example, we're apparently going through a big change indicated by revolutions etc. What?? Like that's never happened before!

This then leads me to drugs...psychedelics mainly. Something that creates a new spiritual experience of love and heavenly surroundings. I mean, don't some shamans use Ayahuasca? And doesn't this responsible for producing DMT too? I have also read that that meditation teachers, even some Zen schools, teach this as nothing more than a hallucination/mind trick (even if produced in meditation - i.e the killing of the vision of Buddha) and such things should be ignored. I may not be 100% up on my facts, but this is what I have come to understand so far...Please let me know if you have any more info! I totally agree with the first few sentences, yes. And maybe having a choice is right, I don't know. Even if it's a limited one...I do see what you're saying. But say I like apples, and I'm ok with oranges, and I'm asked to chose one. Guess what? I chose an apple... Did I chose or was that mind made up for me simply by just being me and having certain taste? Can I train myself to understand that the apple is the bad wolf? Can I train myself to not like apples, permanently? As for the comment of being 100% responsible for our actions, I would say yes to a degree...but of course my above questions just make me wonder whether this is just the fact that we have a society built on a belief that being responsible is important. How often do we have to justify our actions in every day life? Too often. But only because someone asked that of us first. The media is plastered with stories on how people have to explain themselves in court and then a jury decides whether they were right or wrong. I wonder how many people really know the answers to what they're asked in court! Another example is: why did I chose to work at such and such? Then all of a sudden, I have to tell a story on why I think I like a certain type of work. When I'm in a job interview, my honest answer is always *shrug shoulders and think....I don't really know! I just like it here.* Sure I waffle on about what skills I possess and how much I fit in...but really, isn't that obvious? To me it is. It's on my CV/resume after all. So I always end up thinking in my own mind that I realise that I'm talking a load of what they want to hear, but the honest truth is, I didn't really have a choice. I wanted to go for this job, so I did... I sure could have decided to not go for the job. But if I'm in the interview chair, was that ever really an option? Surely if I acted it was because I felt the impulse. If I didn't, surely it wasn't for me...? Do you remember when we had that discussion about "training to be natural"? I think this is what I mean. If someone is NATURALLY a violent murderer, can he be condemned? Maybe if chemistry, as traveler said, is the sole purpose behind morals and thought, then maybe. But I don't think this could just be the case. Thoughts are influences swimming around...I couldn't say that all murderers (I know I use this a lot but I just can't think of anything else off the top of my head right now lol) have chemical imbalances or are a result of drug issues or whatever. I could probably say with more confidence that they grew up with some wrong ideas passed down to them though. Maybe they were taught as a kid that revenge is sweet. Maybe they play too many violent computer games or watch too many violent films. Either way, what choice does this person have to meditate and hear the good wolf if all they see around them is "evil"?

I'm not convinced I do the walking considering my thoughts are per-determined from experiences that I have had. If I play "bad wolf", can I go and murder someone of my own free will? You're implying that I can. But I can't...I've never killed anyone and have no desire to. I am unaware of any "conscious" decision to be this way...I just so happen to be this way. So how responsible am I for my own actions? Have I chosen to walk this path or do I just do it anyway...? ED - But the "bad wolf" who DOES murder...is there justification at their end? Does it seem like the "right thing to do"? I've heard many cases where some have said yes. We would call them mentally ill or deranged. But is this the full story?

On further viewing, have found many counter arguments. Easy to do...though I don't disagree with all he says. Just some content isn't really as solid as he likes to make out

Lol, seriously got two threads going on in one here. As previously stated, I'm making no moral statement whatsoever. I'm just not eating animal when it's all out of my fridge because I just so happen to click with cows and sheep...and eating them the other week has just made me feel like a hypocrite. Eating meat right now just doesn't appeal to me...and I don't care what others do. No superiority, no activism or preaching...just I'm not eating meat. So if we want to talk activism and morals then ok, but it's not a topic that I really care for so I'm out from here. Thanks for all the advice, all taken on board!

Yes I stayed clear of commenting for a while as I feel everything went a bit off topic. For the record, whatever I do won't be for the sake of agreeing with any argument. I won't be chaining myself to any fences outside McDonalds etc lol Nor will I judge. It's just simply something I look to experiment with as my heart is saying to do so. But other peoples opinions don't make a shed of difference to me. Must remember, I only actually asked for dietary advice, not a moral debate

That being said, even if I go veggie, I won't be committing mass genocide

Rofl. Exactly, hence why I now see what Taomeow is getting at. Opens up a whole new can of worms!

Ditto. But is there really a bad wolf? That is my question. Maybe I need to sit and find that out for myself...

@Taomeow Can I just say, although I don't see 100% relevance in everything you have said, you have made a great point. On reading Chaung Tzu, this has hit me: "The perfect man is pure spirit...Neither death nor life concern him, nor is he interested in what is good or bad" Earlier in this chapter, he talks about fact man eating animal...that it just is that way. Perhaps my "moral" view is deluded somewhat. Careful consiration will be taken by me but I thank you for your persistence in wanting to help me understand this!

Just some things that have been on my mind. I like to challenge my own learning.

Trying to find out "what thoughts are" will be like trying to explain the Tao haha. But some ways I describe this: 1) We are not responsible for our thoughts. They seem to just appear as a result of our cultural surroundings. We have experienced a lot and these memories and ideas swim around in front of us. 2) There is however a separate part of the mind which is "you". Depending on "your" strength, thoughts will not lead you as much. But if you are not trained, then you will be led by them and you will be none the wiser when things are actually happening in your life. Now my question is this. If we are born a certain way, into a place where we had zero control over where or what we were born into, then how much free will do we really hav ? Am I responsible for my music taste, my sexual preference, love of spicy food? Or am I just a product of all these things? So, when we meditate, is there much point? Can we consciously change things and evolve ourselves? Or do we meditate because we just do? Do we just do these things just the same way our heart just beats?

Fair enough...my history sucks especially the fine details but I see what you mean. We might be dressed up as more civil but does that mean we truly are? That being said, I still say regardless that loving is as straight forward as not supporting murder. And if I don't eat meat, at least I'm doing what I can to "not support" murder. For the time being anyhow. If we didn't have these set things we do that we deem as moral, wouldn't we lose all control? For me, eating meat is just one thing...but it sounds to me that your attitude towards it is more "fuck it, it happens so don't resent the fact you eat meat". This is fine, but if I adopted this attitude, I would be more irresponsible in general and maybe begin performing further less moral or caring acts.

And both, to be perfectly honest. Though point "b" of course is simple enough as you said. Point "a" is all well and good, but where do you find stuff like this? I'm a guy without a car haha (and if I had to drive to get it, then here comes the environmental issues lol) Is this just all getting too complicated? Yes, I want to avoid supporting unnecessary death and I'm not particularly fond of putting my teeth through flesh any more. Just as much as I don't like, say, cheesy pop music, so I choose not to consume that either

We may not have "invented" meat eating, but rumour has it that we are evolving to a point where we can be more caring. Do we murder other humans as much as we used to? No. We have a universal understanding, in general, that murder is bad. I won't eat a human, so what's so just about eating a cow? I would say that predatory nature comes from ignorance, laziness and ego. The food chain is similar to the corporate world...climbing on shoulders to reach the top. I could be wrong...I could make this move and I could learn that it is a total mistake. But for now, as you can probably see, there isn't much that can change my mind. I opened this thread for advice on my decision, not a meat eater vs veggie debate. Though I do respect the points made and thank all who have given me something to think about

Just opening this back up. Just read some "cons" of turning vegetarian from an article posted earlier in this thread and two points from me. 1. Yes, living creatures die for plant and grains as well as soaps etc. But by not eating meat, how many lives will be saved? This has not been considered in the argument at all! 2. I am well aware if the health risks that could potentially be, but I do not know this for sure by just researching. Perhaps I need to trial this before I say I'm "committed". I'm down to my last couple of chicken meals in the fridge now. Will see how it goes. I would love someone to challenge my first point though!

I have given this exact thing some consideration recently. I learned that yes, I can love all equally and impartially but still, my life then lacks one specific, stand-out relationship. I do enjoy having that one person (partner of 5 years) that I can share my experiences with, no matter what. Someone who will be so damn committed to making me happy, and vice versa. That may not appeal to all cultivators, but for me as an individual, it certainly helps me! It is said that Chuang Tzu was married. Each to their own, as they say!

Anarchist drivers - RAGE AGAINST THE TRAFFIC LIGHT. WE DON'T NEED TRAFFIC LIGHTS...THEY'RE CORRUPT ANYWAY! Haha, point taken Good example of people needing to be led. That being said, I don't know any anarchists that drive.

Similarly, this does sound like something I need to explore. Thank you.