AussieFrog

lol. Wow - that all took quite an interesting turn. Some very helpful insights and thoughts. What has intrigued me is Vmarco's pretense that meditation is a deceptive illusion. I appreciate the many rebuttals, and mostly agree with them. It seems there was a later understanding that Vmarco was being extremely unclear about what he was talking about. However - either way, I think it is fallacious to say that meditation is a trap of any kind. Meditation, especially specific meditations bring the mind under the will, calming it, controlling it, and lessening the "chaos" that is the mind. For all intents and purposes, meditation seems to have given way to more and more mystical experiences and chances to investigate the spiritual. Which I believe is a necessary experience to come to any sort or form of understanding of the realities. I do understand this "be in the now" stuff, and that there are other things one must master in order to "ascend" - however, meditation is the base exercise which allows for mastery of these other areas of life, and living it with the will is the execution thereof. That's my opinion on the matter. To say that meditation is a ruse and a trap - well, if that's all you do, if you deny your other responsibilities to meditate - yeah, that's the case with anything. There must be balance and control of all things. But meditation is one of the key utilities in sorting out the self well enough to be able live with full purpose. A ruse/trap? Not for me. Interesting nonetheless - I see some merit the the concern. But I can't say I agree with it the way you present it.

This, being the forum that it is, is surely filled with those who question the very nature of reality. As we understand it, there is one accepted academic method for determining the reality around us, and multiple accepted spiritual methods for determining reality. I think, one of the most widely accepted, yet most fallible method for determining the nature of reality is the induction of the spiritual, or mystical, experience. The reason I find this to be difficult as a methodology for determining truth is that so many religions and sects (and the members of) use their own personal mystical experience as a determinant of truth. This, of course, is of the most fallacious nature. When Christians see Christ during and NDE, Buddhists see The Buddha, Atheists often have alien abduction experiences and/or a meeting with deceased loved ones while the Hindu believer will witness the eternal dance of Kali and Shiva. From my own personal experiences working with astral projection, I have found that the "astral" world is quite different, which raises many questions. The fact that my drapes are green in the astral world but white in the physical world is odd. The fact that my office wall at work is composed mainly of overlapping posters in the astral, but in the physical is just a wall - is compelling. There is more evidence than not that the astral world (especially during highly mystical states) consists mainly of one's personal core beliefs leads me to believe that the untrained person may easily mistake a mystical experience (or projection of one's core beliefs into the oh, so malleable astral ether) as a concrete testimony of the truth of their personal beliefs and faith. This is bothersome to say the least as I have many friends and family who are convinced beyond reason that their religion or belief is the only truth out there. Now, science has given us a form to follow for determining the most likely scenario. This is called "the scientific method". Granted, there may yet be a more logical system for determining the causes and relationships between phenomena that we, as a young and ambitious organism, have not yet adopted. However, as it is, we do have a fairly reliable method passed down from the great giants of science. How is it that so many see our physical world as troubled and riddled with half-truths, yet expect the astral / spiritual worlds to be nothing but truth and transparency? I would like to ,make a proposition. That those who are truly interested in understanding the nature of reality, take a scientific approach to the spiritual world. And I don't mean comparing spiritual phenomena with scientific theory - such as many mystics do with string theory. I think that's a false identity and gives us zero results. I, for one, take Franz Bardon's proposal seriously. Robert Bruce also mentions such an idea. The concept is to place a few cards from a well suffled deck of playing cards around the house, turned upward on the top of shelves and facing outward in windows you don't usually see from outside. Personally, I have already done this. However, I have yet to test it. The theory here is not to expect perfect results during an astral projection. The idea is to become more and more effective and maintaining a close relationship to the "real-time-zone" while out of body. Once one can effectively perform the correct retrieval of the values of each playing card while out of body - then, and only then, is one capable of testing the water. By that, I mean, once one can consciously adhere to the reality of they physical instead of flying off in some "la la astral land", then legitimate practices can begin. I don't know about you guys, but I find it extremely difficult to maintain a real-time presence once out of body. I will quickly find myself in a strange astral ream once I get too far from my body. And by too far, I mean, literally leaving the room my body is in. All too often my astral experiences turn whacky and cartoony and deliver zero evidences of a reality beyond the physical. So, the question: What is going on? The purpose: to know, to grow, to ascend. The way: practice practice practice, and take nothing for granted until you can verify and validate. ... am I missing something?

Slippy! Bardon is an amazing magician and mystic. His initiatory book is the backbone to my studies. First off - I agree with you, I don't see "god" as some moralistic consciousness that rewards and punishes. I think that point of view may not be correct, considering the sequence of creation when one considers the necessity of something to derive from nothing, and the assumption that "all is mind", which I believe, it doesn't make sense that there would be any moral bias or motivation behind the primordial forces of creation. However - though I don't personally subscribe to his dogmatic view of the matter ... ...side note: I get the feeling that some of the dogmatic view portrayed by Bardon are nothing more than deterrents to the "untrained" magician. To keep a novice from going on a murdering spree or what not. Personally, I get the feeling that bardon is not dogmatic nor necessarily moralistic - but that he gives that air in order to keep the hate-driven black magician and the power hungry practitioner from finding too much interest in his work. ... I have seen benefit after benefit of what he's laid out. And, after having followed that path for nearly 2 years now - slowly but surely working my way through the steps - I can say that what he describes is real and that working his path will definitely lead you to what he claims it will. Good luck, and welcome! I'm new here as well

Wow - what an interesting thread. I think it's safe to say that everybody has a different idea of what trance is, what meditation is, and which levels of each are conducive to proper mind/body/spirit training. I've always accepted trance as a necessary, albeit, small portion of meditative exercises. Sometimes trancing out can be very helpful imo. Other times, other meditations are necessary to build and understanding of ones self. To maintain awareness is one of the more difficult tasks. For instance, the void meditation requires full awareness, actively removing any disturbances, and not allowing the self to "trance out". However, oddly enough, certain awareness meditations require allowing the self to trance out, but maintaining enough awareness to be an observer and taking the back seat as you watch the silliness unfold before you yet keeping from indulging in it. As many of us have, I'm sure, I've played with all sorts of trances, meditations, and states of consciousness. To say that any one is particularly damaging to ones progress is, I think, not totally correct. I think one needs to have a firm grasp on what is possible and be well experienced in nearly any possible state. To become one-sided, however, and become indulgent in just one corner of the consciousness state playground is - in my opinion - what it to be avoided. Not necessarily that corner itself.

I've noticed a lot of this stuff too, and I've analyzed it to a fairly excessive paranoid level With the blobbly rings that move from the outer rim toward the center, I get that too. However, each ring alternates a green-ish overtone and then a purple-ish overtone. Sometimes, however, I get them moving in an opposing direction from the center to the outer rim. I've noticed that in dark rooms, I can hold my hand out before my face and wave my hand with my eyes closed - and can clearly see my hand. Interesting to note, the more relaxed I am, the more the form of my hand comes through. WIth my eyes open, if I wave my hand before my face, I can see long streaks ... or beams of a "light darkness", appearing like there is some sort of ethereal flash-light attached to the end of each finger. The beams extend as far as my bedroom walls. I had thought they might "wrap" back to become a part of the auraic shell, but that doesn't appear to be what this is. Though the beams appear to be a sort of "light" it is colorless in nature. Not black, but not white. Nothing really, however it is detectable just the same. I have also worked fairly regularly on my projectable imagination. In dark rooms, this becomes much easier, though is still somewhat possible in a lit room. The funny little flashes of light and squiggles, I've tried duplicating. I've noticed that I can project 3-dimensional shapes before me which will "keep form". I can rotate them with my mind, etc. I have lately been playing with living forms such as cats, other people, etc. Keep in mind, from light to fairly heavy relaxation, these forms maintain a very dissolved appearance. Almost as if they were ghosts. However, in a deep trance - it has been a fairly regular occurrence to witness these forms becoming quite solid and taking on a shockingly real appearance. When practicing with human forms, this can be an experience that will quickly shock you into full wakefulness, as that seeing a solid and material human form suddenly appear before you, even if you know it's your own projection, is quick a frightening experience the first few times. The shapes and "objects" (objects such as practicing with apples, forks, match boxes, etc) tend to not be frightening so much as exciting to suddenly reach that level. Which can also bring you back to wakefulness. However, after some time with the experience they tend to not be so amazing and it becomes easier to maintain a trance state. For some reason, the pyramid form ( and this may just be with me) during its "solidification", appears to emerge into a real form like it would from underneath water into the air above. The ethereal pyramid form seems to "break through" some sort of reality fabric into it's "real" solid form. Though these forms, in both their ghostly and "real" forms are still imaginary projections, they are interesting to play with, and I give credit to my previous playing with "things that you see in the dark" in the first place

I've actually tried to contact him via email a few times after reading his book. But he hasn't replied to any of them, and it's been several weeks, perhaps months by now. I'm actually concerned about some of the information give in that book. For example, the banana thing. Why did John Chang choose the banana? It seems a little too close to the old magic trick where you use a needle and thread to slice a banana while still in its peel and then amaze everyone that it's "pre-cut" when you peel it. Some of the other things are not so easy to explain and come across as impossible to pull off fraudulently, requiring real powers - however, that particular story didn't sit well with me. thoughts?

Namaste!

How very zen of you No, but seriously, I've come to a similar conclusion. The only truth is that "I am", the the first place to look for truth is within the first truth one is aware of - and that is awareness itself. So - in all honestly - awareness is my master as well

Hello, I've been TaoBums browser for the last several years and I greatly appreciate the information found and presented on this site. So thank you! I've joined for a few specific reasons. As it turns out, there are way more frauds out there than fish in the sea. It's plain ridiculous. So, my first reason is to expose a particular school of "chi energy". I gave them a go for nearly a year and a half. I got brave and started testing the instructors with legitimate "tests" at the times of our phone calls. Truly, I was in utter shock at their blatant willingness to pretend they could feel what I was doing or how I was feeling. I would like to publish the report of my experience. I'm fairly angry, out a few thousand because of them, and I feel it is my duty to expose my experience to the public. Now, it has come to my attention that some forum members here have been touting this school. I've read their posts and all I see is cognitive bias. I'm a fairly honest young man, and I have nothing to gain by slinging any mud. However, I do have justice to deliver in the case of frauds. Finding legitimate teachers is hard enough. In fact, damn near impossible for most people. The fact that these charlatans have become comfortable with either duping themselves and believing nonsense, or outright duping others with absolutely zero care for the fact that they're ripping people off is enough for me to find the itch to publish my experience for the true seeker. And, the second reason I've joined is simply because I have had far too long a time where I simply was a receiver of this information on this website.I feel I've learned enough to where I could contribute some. Not a lot - I'm no master in any way of any thing - but I have learned some interesting stuff in my day,and I look forward to repaying the community for all the information I've accumulated throughout the years. Thanks Everybody!!! --AussieFrog