asunthatneversets

This topic came up recently on another forum, here's some stuff I wrote and some citations: Śamatha is a practice which is usually relegated to the mind, meaning it's an activity that requires effort (or implies effort i.e. a subtle dualistic grasping) no matter how effortless it may appear. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche has said that when śamatha becomes what he calls 'released śamatha', then that is equivalent to the vipaśyanā of the natural state, which is the non-meditation of Dzogchen associated with rigpa [vidyā]. There's (i) non-fixation which is resting in the clarity of mind (as a reference point), and then there's (ii) non-fixation resting in the nature of mind (free of a reference point). (i) would be śamatha. Dudjom Rinpoche points out the difference between the two: "When the mind starts to rest, a slight diminishment of movement and thoughts constitutes a false semblance of stillness. When deep certainty arises that stillness is unborn and movement unceasing, and that stillness and movement are an equal taste, you have begun to meditate correctly." Here's Mipham Rinpoche discussing the difference between śamatha and rigpa... essentially warning not to mistake calm abiding śamatha for the natural state: "When you rest your attention in naturalness without thinking anything whatsoever and maintain constant mindfulness in that state, you may experience a vacant and blank state of mind which is neutral and indifferent. If no vipaśyanā of decisive knowing is present, this is exactly what the masters call 'ignorance'. It is also called 'undecided' from the point of being unable to express any means of identification, such as 'It is like this!' or 'This is it!' Being unable to say what you are remaining in or thinking of, this state is labelled 'ordinary indifference'. But actually, it is just an ordinary and nonspecific abiding in the state of the all-basis [skt. ālaya, tib. kun gzhi]. Although nonconceptual wakefulness has to be developed through this method of resting meditation, to lack the wisdom that sees your own nature is not the main part of meditation practice. This is what the 'Aspiration of Samantabhadra' says: 'The vacant state of not thinking anything Is itself the cause of ignorance and confusion.' ...." Here's Adeu Rinpoche discussing śamatha and vipaśyanā in the context of Dzogchen and Mahāmudrā: "When embarking on meditation practice in the Mahamudra tradition, the meditator is taught three aspects: stillness, occurrence and noticing. The cultivation of stillness means to train in cutting off involvement in memories; you disengage from entertaining any thought about what has happened in the past. The same with regard to the future: you are not supposed to construct any plans about the next moment. And in the present, right now, simply and completely let go. Drop everything and settle into nowness. In the Mahamudra tradition, stillness refers to not following thoughts about the past, present or future--not churning out any new thoughts. A beginner will notice that totally letting be without any thought involvement does not last that long. Due to the karmic force of the energy currents, new thoughts are continuously formed--thoughts grasping at subject and object, at the pleasant and unpleasant. The activation of such patterns is known as occurrence. When the attention is quiet and still, there is a knowing that this is so. When one is involved in thinking about this and that, there is a knowing that this is so. In this context of stillness and thought occurrence, this knowing is called noticing. [...] As you grow more capable, there comes a point when the thought occurrences no longer have such a strong hold on the attention. It becomes easier to arrive back in quietness. Eventually, every time a thought begins to stir, rather than getting caught up in it, you will simply be able to remain, until the force of the thought occurrence weakens and the aware quality grows and strengthens. The dividing line between stillness and occurrence fades away. That is the point at which we can recognize the actual identity of noticing what mind nature really is. In other words, vipashyana can begin. [...] In the beginning, a thought vanishes; that is called stillness. Next, a new thought arises; that is called thought occurrence. One notices that these are happening. These three--stillness, thought occurrence and noticing--have to do with becoming increasingly aware of the gap between thoughts. This aware quality grows stronger and stronger, which only happens with training. You cannot artificially increase it. The difference between shamatha and vipashyana, in this context, is when you recognize that which notices and what the awake quality is. According to the Dzogchen system, if your shamatha practice is simply training in being absentminded remaining in a neutral, indifferent state without any thought activity whatsoever, this is known as the all-ground. It is simply a way of being free of thought involvement. Moreover, when attention becomes active within the expanse of the all-ground that activity is known as dualistic mind. But when the dividing line between stillness and thought occurrence fades away, and instead the strength of the aware quality is intensified, the awake quality is known as rigpa. Depending on whether one is using the Mahamudra system or the Dzogchen approach, there are different terminologies, but the actual training is essentially the same in both cases." and "According to Dzogchen one must identify the ground of liberation, the natural state of rigpa, which is not the same as the ordinary state of mind known as the all-ground. No matter how many thousands of years one trains in the state of the all-ground, there will be absolutely no progress--one will simply arise again in the state of samsara--whereas training in the natural state of mind of rigpa is nothing other than the ground of liberation. There it is important to distinguish the normal, ordinary mind of the all-ground from the natural, ordinary mind that is the ground of liberation, and train accordingly. To put it simply, according to Dzogchen the self-knowing original wakefulness is pointed out in our ordinary state of mind. According to Mahamudra, the essence of the meditation practice is found within the ordinary, natural state of mind; it is pointed out as the original, true wakefulness. Having recognized this, one can then proceed to train in it, and as the training deepens, there are certain stages of progress described as the four yogas, each of which is further divided into the three categories of lesser, medium and higher capacity. These are collectively known as the twelve aspects of the four yogas of the path of Mahamudra. Another approach is to apply the structure of the four yogas to each of the yogas, resulting in sixteen aspects. These are equally valid and merely describe the ever-deepening levels of experience and stability in the natural, ordinary mind."

I've been told that there are upadesha Mahamudra teachings which are along the same lines of Dzogchen updadesha. Although I suppose in the context of Dzogchen, Longde [klong sde] isn't technically upadesha, since upadesha translates to Mennagde [man ngag sde], but yes there are other Mahamudra teachings which are in the same vein as Longde/Mennagde. My friend who is involved with Drikung Kagyu says that those type of teachings do exist, however they aren't widely known, I know nothing about them.

Another name for Formless Mahamudra is Essence Mahamudra (forgot to mention that in the other post above).

For Mahamudra, Mahayoga (generation stage) and Anuyoga (completion stage) only apply to 'form Mahamudra'. There is also 'formless Mahamudra' which does not implement generation and completion stage practices and is very similar to Dzogchen. It's actually believed that Gampopa received Dzogchen teachings from Milarepa and put his own spin on the four naljors of Dzogchen semde to create the four yogas which are the stages of formless Mahamudra. Formless Mahamudra ends up being essentially the same as the Dzogchen practice of tregchö.

Yes this is A-Khrid instruction. Which is to say 'A Tri'. 'Tri', meaning instructions on how to perform a certain practice or ritual, as in wang, lung and tri, the three aspects which constitute an empowerment. And 'A' meaning one's primordial nature. A-Khrid is instructions on how to recognize vidyā (rig pa).

I can speak from experience without discussing my own experience. I can share knowledge, insight and help other individuals without listing off my own accomplishments and attainments... I don't see what the issue is.

Hey sorry for the delayed response... I suppose I don't see the benefit in discussing myself. In the context of realizations, insights and experience, I'm a proponent of speaking from experience but not about one's own experience. There are many who brag and flaunt the little experience they have, making mountains out of molehills while others with vast experience are quiet and humble, never saying a word. I respect humility and though there are exceptions, I do not find teachers or individuals who boast about how long they've been practitioners, what transmissions they've acquired or what level of attainment they hold... to be any different than the man who drives a exotic sports car draped in gold chains and diamonds rings with little wealth to his name. They are both compensating for their lack of confidence and measure themselves by the amount of attention and praise they get. Worse yet, others speak of their length of practice, transmissions and level of attainment while having none at all, fooling everyone into thinking they are profound and experienced practitioners or teachers... how sad it is for everyone they beguile... and how sad it is for them that they are compelled to play such a petty game, especially a game where no one wins. I would rather no one listen to me than for people to accept what I say based off of my experience. "Wealth, success and status are all simply ways of attracting enemies and demons... aren’t you just bragging... all their praise and acknowledgements will only make you proud... there’s no better sign of accomplishment than a disciplined mind, this is true victory for the real warrior who carries no weapons." - Chatral Rinpoche

My apologies I misread your post and thought you had said dzogchen is 'not' about recognition vs. non-recognition. I would've edited my post above but don't see how to on the phone. Yes I agree though... Dzogchen is concerned with recognition vs. non-recognition / knowledge vs. ignorance.

Recognition of your nature implies knowledge (vidyā/rigpa) of your nature. Non-recognition of your nature implies ignorance (avidyā/marigpa) of your nature. Recognition is crucial, hence direct introduction being first and foremost in dzogchen.

I'm not sure what you mean by using terms as taught to me. Being that we're discussing ideas on a web forum and have to use language to communicate, we're all using terms as taught to us. If you'd like to specify what doesn't make sense I'll gladly elaborate, but the terminology I used seems fairly straight forward and defines what I mean pretty effectively. Doesn't everyone live in a state of awareness? Being that we are alive, I feel being aware is naturally implied, no?

Malcolm is not wrong, all conditioned phenomena are a product of ignorance. Arisings in any sense of the word are defiled. I like how Jax is trying to reconcile his view and sound like Malcolm now though.

Jax isn't introducing rigpa, what Jax is describing is merely neutral undifferentiated cognizance.

Tibetan Ice, though I haven't really investigated this experience very thoroughly you're the only other person I've ever heard mention this type of occurrence. This same experience has happened to me twice, both times while driving. For me it started with a sensation in the heart area that slowly welled up into the head until it felt as if my awareness or cognizance was pouring out of my eyes. The first time it happened I stopped the experience before it went too far because I wasn't sure what was going to happen if it continued (I was driving and didn't want to risk any impairment). The second time it lasted a bit longer and I had I began to have the same experience you mentioned with your cognizance suffusing with 'outer-phenomena' but because I was driving and couldn't relax completely it eventually faded out. Both times it visually appeared like the 'dolly-zoom' camera effect that was used in Hitchcock's film Vertigo and felt like my cognizance was pouring (or slowly expanding) out of my eyes. I was also very relaxed prior to this happening and had been meditating while I drove for some time (essentially maintaining a relaxed and undistracted focus). Interesting stuff. I wrote to a senior practitioner to get his opinion but haven't heard back, I don't want to speculate about the experience, especially not with the thogal anatomy, but for all I know there is a possibility your theories could be accurate, though I can't say for sure. At any rate though, it's intriguing to find someone else who's had this same experience, if there are others (and it is indeed related to thogal) they most likely don't talk about it since that practice is generally not to be discussed openly. I've been interested in finding out more about the nature of this experience but haven't pursued it too intensively because one aspect of my practice is to not grasp and cling at experiences. There are many mundane nyams (or meditative experiences) such as these which can occur and it's best to let them pass just as any other experiential phenomena would. But at the same time this experience was definitely out of the ordinary and very interesting, plus the fact that there's now only you and I I've heard about it from, quite intriguing.

I would've posted this in "Forum And Tech Support" but it says 'You cannot create a new topic' (though I can in this forum) and when reading topics it says 'You cannot reply to this post'... I wasn't sure who to contact or what to do. I'm a new member but I couldn't find anything that said there is a probational period after signing up where posting isn't allowed... If anyone has any suggestions or answers to this issue please let me know, Thanks!