opendao

1. Physical health is important, and there are no "sick immortals". So health and "becoming xian" cannot be separated. But the way to obtain health is different in Dao cultivation and Qigong: different ways, different approaches. 2. Longevity is just a side effect of the correct practice. 3. "Young looking old alchemist" is the only proof of the correctness of some stages of the alchemy. If you learn Dao from a school, where the masters are sick, look old and die, then you waste time, and it cannot be named Neidan or Dao cultivation. It sounds like a maxima, but it's the only way not to be fooled. The immortality is a corner stone of the alchemy, and if you pretend to learn the alchemy (and not something else), then you need to know in details what "immortality" means on various stages, how it affects the physical body, what are the signs of progress etc. If you know that then you can find a teacher, because you know what to look for. If you don't know any forum troll will be your friend on your way down. Again, the only possibility to learn the alchemy is to meet Xian. If you were not able to do that, or if you haven't even tried, because you had more important things in your life or you don't believe in texts, then it doesn't prove Xian don't exist. But maybe it proves that it's not your way in this life. It's ok, there is nothing bad to be "common sense". Horizon is very different for everyone. And the balance between celestial souls Hung and earth souls Po is also different for everyone. The wise student hears of the Tao and practices it diligently. The average student hears of the Tao and gives it thought now and again. The foolish student hears of the Tao and laughs aloud. If there were no laughter, the Tao would not be what it is. (Dao De Jing 41, translated by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English) I wish you not to be foolish or average dao students. I really think it's better to switch to something else: dances, music, beer drinking, tv watching, forum reading and other usual "longevity practices" you like if you feel impossibility to find and practice the ancient Dao.

After death Hung soul continues to live anyway. You need no practice to get such result. to follow the direct way of things and die is not the goal of Dao cultivation. to transform the Hung soul and "attain Dao", "entering sainthood", "becoming a shenxian" are the goals of Dao cultivation.

Dao De Jing is the main source. Sima Qian is worth to read. Many Neidan texts explain the genesis of Daoism (Baopuzi, for example). What are the key concepts of Lao Zi? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on. What are the key concepts of Neidan? Dao, De, Wuwei, Ziran, attaining Dao, becoming a sage-saint-immortal and so on. Neidan texts used the terminology of the external alchemy, like lead, mercury, tripod etc. But how do they explain it, what synonyms do they use, what is the goal of Neidan practice? It's the same as the classic Daoist texts, it's the same as what we know about pre-LaoZi era. Is it clear or do you need hundreds of quotes? I believe you're able to find them on your own. We're preparing an article, but it's becoming a book and it's taking a lot of time...

Internal single cultivation is the most ancient one and has the highest status because of its results and virtue. Neidan is a later term, and it used the language of Waidan to describe the same internal processes as before. Scientists don't understand the practice, and don't see the succession between early Daoism (Huang Di - Lao Zi) and later Neidan cultivation. Taoist Yoga is just a brand of Charles Luk. Neidan works jing-qi-shen, but it works with preheaven ingridients, not postheaven as TY and various other deviations.

it's a test of some high level results. "Look young" has no other function. there are 2 ways: direct and reverse. You speak about direct and preserving Qi, Daoism speaks about reverse and replenishing. Direct way works, but doesn't give results of the reverse path. spirit lives on anyway, so it's not the goal of Dao cultivation.

right. And this is the difference between real internal alchemy and multiple qigong methods. By breathing, daoyin, herbs and many other methods it's impossible to become Xian-Immortal, which is the essence of the Great Dao.

In all times to find a real teacher was hard. Even for Chinese. A lot of travelling, a lot of encounters with charlatans - it's all in biographies of Neidan masters of the past. Nowadays the situation changed a bit: Chinese teach foreigners, Internet helps to find texts and so on. But it is counterbalanced by the information "noise": today in China thousand of schools are ready to teach you the secrets of immortality for a couple of american dollars. In the West the same picture and it's becoming worse every year. But the trend is positive, because more and more people in the West get access to the genuine tradition, and they can see the value and difference between the tradition and various multiple forgeries. Really, to differentiate truth from false is easy, but modern society zombies the crowd to accept everything without critical thought, so the words of the teachers and patriarchs jump back out of this wall of arrogance. That's fine, nothing new, those who are not brainwashed, they can find the truth. Again, as a counterbalance, the freedom in the modern world cannot be compared with China in the past. So it's easier to find a real teacher, it's easier to find texts, it's easier to practice, but it's harder to be a person with willingness and ability to do all that )) And I think for all reasonable people it's better that Neidan slowly comes out of the shadow.

it might be but it was not, and such ideas don't help to understand Lao Zi and later tradition. but at least no antlers any more, good... Maybe in 50 years we'll finally hear that there is no shaman connection as well?

my respect. 3 years ago, but nothing has changed.

uninterrupted rubbish you write, as usual.

It's not something real Daoists share on forums. If you have it - discuss with your teacher and students sometimes, when it helps for their progress.... That's it. That's how it works in the tradition.

What if I do and it's not what you describe? Immortals-Xian don't teach what you teach. And they understand Dao De Jing, while you don't. So next what? You'll invent some story that Lao Zi revealed real meaning only for you, while all other Xian-Immortals are "common folks" and don't know what you know? Dawei, it's ridiculously funny, and you cannot even imagine how easy it's to check.... Before chasing light in dreams, meet at least one Immortal-Xian in reality. Then we'll continue our nice discussion. But I bet you won't need it after that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems such idea is way behind usual understanding of animistic culture, esp in "primitive" societies ("crib societies" is a better term, not sure if you know it though)... Usual it's just statement like "bear has a spirit, as we have", then action - giving bear gifts, do not use its name, do not think about bear when coming into the forest, bear dance to properly "release" the spirit of the animal after hunting etc. How it's related to Daoism, Hetu, Luoshu, characters and other attributes of Daoist culture? In folk Daoism, various off-roots, late religious Daoism such animistic things exist. But it's because Dao was lost, not because it's something good )) Right, so basically it's just a stereotype that works good for scientists only, and gives nothing but confusion practically.

You referred two related things, and only one you named Spirit. When you talked about Xin. For me it was obviously about Spirit-Shen. For the "light beings" you're visiting every Sunday, you didn't use any terminology as far as I see. But they are not Xian according to your own descriptions and some other signs. If they are not Xian, then they are Gui. Or illusions. Up to you to choose, I really don't care. I used the term "spirits" as a synonym to ghosts, gui etc. And I don't use term "spirits" towards Xian. It's not right. And when I spoke about "not so cool experience" I didn't reply to you at all, so I couldn't "miss your point" or "mix up". So no Dawei, I see no matter for confusion here.

Again logic problem: if USSR succeeded Russian Empire as a country, it means absolutely nothing about their ideology succession. Go to school, it's annoying to debunk your childish and infinitely aggressive arguing. And read something about the difference between communism in USSR, Orthodox church that were banned and prosecuted in USSR, then about Stalin and his impact (yes, church was prosecuted severely). Damn, sure this anonymous nobody knows the truth, while people learnt the history knows nothing. Buffoon. Your "opinions" about Neidan have the same value as your opinions about history. You just know absolutely nothing. Keep proving it after every post I make.

Nope, I have not. Right. And I didn't tell you did tell that. I spoke about shallow people, maybe you recognised yourself... Well, be careful. But definitely for you Jesus was a shaman: I beg my pardon, I made a huge mistake: I got used in the sport world that trainer of champions, judge and awarded Kung Fu master has to be a champion, at least once in his career... Yes, definitely another way then you think. Student who can't understand the treatise of his teacher? Well, it happens in the world of kungfu masters who have never won championships, even in empty forms competitions, but who teach others... The end of shaman-with-antlers circus. Too much attention to somebody's poor ego. No answers, nothing to speak about. -------------------------------------------------------------- fair enough. But to understand Lao Zi one needs to look at what was before. Because there was a lot of similarities, and it can help to understand Lao Zi a lot. Especially Chinese Etymology and historical texts about Huang Di. Let's take some examples, so not to speak too abstract. Yijing, 8 trigrams, Preheaven and Postheaven order. What is animism here? It doesn't look for me as animism at all, especially the way you define it through awareness. The energies are not aware the way humans are. If we reduce the definition to only as being "alive", then Yin or Yang, are they alive the way humans are? I don't feel to say it's right. To say that one Qi is everywhere doesn't point to any animistic culture. Because Qi has no "anima" the way we have. We have Hung and Po souls together, does Dao have them this way? Lord Lao? Ghosts-gui or Immortal-Gods-Xian? No, their "construction" is different then ours, very different. Animistic culture is natural evolution of the society when there is no teaching how to overcome the natural flow and turn into Xian. If there is such teaching (China, India, Egypt etc) then animism is fading out and appears only when the celestial teaching disappears. If you really want to see tendencies, think about Cosmos beyond duality and 10000 things. Then it's a world view of the Golden Age ))) Through practice it's possible to feel, maybe somebody can get it through texts... Picture for you to think about: (it's from Ontario, Canada) It's not animistic culture, IMHO.

You lie to cover yourself. And I'm not a friend to people without virtue. I criticize the gibberish you write, you have nothing to answer to my simple questions, just repeating same mistakes over and over. You cannot even provide the name of your school, but telling I'm fake. Not serious. Your experience and practices are not Daoist in its heart, contradict texts and the tradition, and don't lead to basic results marked by Lao Zi as Dao. That's just fact I see out of your insane revelations, "holyman", "immortal shaman", "kungfu champion" and other titles you use, they can't hypnotize me, alas. It doesn't mean the practices I'm questioning don't work, sometimes they are, but the problem is that they don't work towards Dao, and that's you will never understand. There are many Dao schools that are in parallel with what I'm saying. Sad they don't appear here often, though I understand their reasoning... But it doesn't mean I'm alone and "above any learning". There is a lot to learn for anybody, however I'm against the idea to accept any rubbish as a truth. That's my only point in this topic: choose carefully what to practice and from who to learn. Bad experience can stop your practice in this life or can lead you in an opposite direction. That's the mind discipline I'm talking about. And in this topic we could see many interesting examples how the lack of mind discipline make people inattentive, insane and, eventually, crazy and sick. The mind training I've covered lightly is not a "secret practice", it costs you nothing, but as any other training it needs many efforts. Regular practice of any traditional Qigong / Neigong does help, but it cannot substitute the intellectual work needed to be done first. Gifted students have it innate, many people today are not gifted, but they could practice and attain Dao. Because they could tame their mind and find a balance. exactly, so any claims that Lao Zi was a shaman and was surrounded by shamanistic culture have no proofs and substance. It's just a stereotype some shallow people like to stop own progress. No, intellectuals don't repeat such popular mistakes: 所行道也從辵從首一達謂之道 (說文解字) for those who can't read, I have pictures: Dao "head" and antlers Nothing in common. So again no shamans. Last nail in the coffin of this misconception about shamans: the Chinese culture is text based. When something is a root, then terminology, characters etc will be used in the texts of the descendant teaching. There is nothing like that in classic Daoist texts. Idea that Dao De Jing is a "shamanic text" cannot be supported by any researcher, initiated into the Daoist tradition. Minus one myth.

LOL - Logic of Lamers 1) ignore facts 2) out of many hypothesis built on the lack of facts, pick any you like and present it as an ultimate truth 3) insult those who brings facts destroying the ultimate truth 4) say lol when it's impossible to ignore facts example: How easy is to build wrong hypothesis out of wrong facts and lack of logic. "Since he is the founder of Taoism, it follows that Taoism has originated from shamanism." Stalin has finished and supposed to be an Orthodox priest, does it mean that Stalinism is based on Orthodox Christianity? Obviously not. False lame logic just to fool people. dear Dawei, you made bunch of mistakes, cannot read carefully and now saying I "mix up"? You're talking too much with ghosts it seems, forgot how to listen to normal people. I'm using Daoist terms you don't worry about, but it solely your problem. there is no such tradition as Animism in Chinese tradition. Fu Xi, Yijing, Hetu, Luoshu, Chinese etymology - it's not animism, but it's what was before Huang Di. Next, Yellow Emperor, who is the real founder of Daoism, Lao Zi just passed it over to students and left the text (to students!). According to the tradition (written and oral), Huang Di learnt from shenxian. Who were they? Not shamans, they didn't connect the world of spirits and men by means of any communication. They cultivated Dao "in mountains". Was it just animism? No, the main idea of that ancient teaching was Dao, which is beyond the Nature, beyond Heaven and Earth. The main goal was to attain Dao and ascend to higher realms. I hope you agree that it's not the same as Shamanistic, Animistic or other things scientist are trying to convince us about the past of Daoism?

for someone advising what Dao is and what it's not you're too inattentive: "Lord Lao" is not a "spirit-gui" I referred as "not a cool experience" (proof: "In contrast, spirits-gui are really not so cool to deal and communicate with"). So Dawei, attention! Lao Zi is a Xian. Immortal. Not spirit-ghost-devil-Gui 鬼! I'm not surprised you see no difference though: you have no boundaries. That's a real problem, no kidding. And Attention is very important in "mind training". Thanks for pushing the topic forward in a right direction. Dawei, the word Dao has multiple contexts in the tradition. The Dao that is everywhere is not your Dao, and not what Lao Zi named as Great Dao. There is dandao, rendao and a lot of other terms you need to figure out (yes, practically) first to grasp at least something about what Dao IS. Then it'll be very easy to understand what is NOT Dao in the context of Daoist cultivation.

Well put together. Thank you. I was thinking about it, it's a very widespread idea in the West that shamanism is the root of Daoism, so I tried to find anything reliable (haven't found). Usually they speak about shamans-Wu, who possessed (probably) some similarity with Siberia shamans. That's why Wu was translated as "shamans" by Western scientists. It's out of my interest why Flowing Hands uses the word "shaman", but definitely "sorcerer" is more applicable to what he does. Siberian shamanism is known, as I told before, if it's not fake, then it works with various ghost, lower level spirits, yin-worlds by means of trance and yin-spirit abilities. As you probably know, Dao goes in the opposite direction and doesn't need any side help except a teacher. So stories about "light beings" teaching someone are mostly just illusions, in rare cases - yin-spirits in dreams or trance. Both leads to quick exhaustion, health, emotional and life problems. About animism. Sure Daoist treats everything as alive (because it is). But it's not the most important in Daoism. Daoist doesn't ask trees to help him, he doesn't feed bananas to various spirits or "gods", he basically has no need to deal with them. So even animistic approach can be different. In Dao teaching the Nature has its own role, because it's a huge ocean of energy, maybe unique by its beauty in the Universe, and sure it's possible to use it for the sake of practice or in helping people. But it's another story, it's not a communication with spirits. It's just a sensitivity to such energy and ability to manage it. In contrast, spirits-gui are really not so cool to deal and communicate with...

Obviously nobody needs the "happiness" in the form this "holyman" trying to convince us to get it. But then we need to define, what is happiness really? Buddhism says directly: "no struggling". So the idea is to save all beings out of struggling. Daoism is more moderate about it, but in Dao De Jing the idea is similar: the king can save its people through Dao cultivation, meaning he has to achieve the level when his own De saves people out of struggling. The same idea is in Orthodox Christianity: "Save yourself, and thousands will be saved around you" (Seraphim of Sarov). How it can be possible? The answer is simple: the Dao cultivation grows De and makes it miraculous. That's the only way to help people and make them really happy.

so little you know, so dark is your heart... The stupidity of your claim is that it's impossible to practice Ming without Xing. "Dual cultivation" also doesn't mean that Ming and Xing are cultivated simultaneously. Next your quotes of students testimonials again are not applicable: they practice no Ming work yet. About "roving fire": you don't know even its symptoms, confusing it with heat sensations, which happen very often in the beginning because it's a beginning and students' yin-yang is not balanced yet. Other gibberish is not worth even to comment, because it's based on false statements. "Entering daemons" - again you've never even heard how it's happen. Who are you trying to fool except of yourself? Ming is associated with the "body", same as Xing is associated with the heart-mind. But when texts speaks about Ming cultivation, they don't assume that Daoist do physical education exercises or martial arts or any other body activity. Also "roving fire" cannot happen after Ming work, it's the main difference between safe methods of the alchemy and postheaven methods of Qigong. Some Daoist schools have changed the initial principle, disclosed by Lao Zi, and start the practice with Xin (heart-mind) cultivation, then Ming. It has own good reasons, but it doesn't change the main principle of "dual cultivation". There are some stages characterized as "more Ming, little Xing" etc. The main idea is that the body cannot be disregarded, as it happens very often in many systems, that lost (or never had) Ming work.

Answer questions first, then make advices... So far you're just bringing more questions about your lineages, relations between off-roots and mainland sects, your relation to Xiao Yao Pai etc. It moves us out of the topic, which is simple: "Shamanism is not a root of Daoism, so its ideas cannot help in Dao cultivation". Btw, I haven't found your school name anywhere. What's that? Feel free to use Chinese, it'll be more clear then your "transcriptions". And what cannons of your school are in Daozang? At least some. I hope you know when and how Daozang was created. About your martial arts skills: there is a video on your site. I'm happy if someone names it "immortal kungfu received spiritually". I see nothing interesting comparing to IMA masters seen in China... Also I have no interest to discuss Daoist off-roots from "Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore"... Even in mainland China very often ancient Daoism is mixed up with various sorcery, folk religions, martial arts and so on. But there are a few places where Dao has been preserved in Mainland China, it's enough to know what they think about Dao and how do they cultivate it, so it's possible to differentiate deviations from the tradition of HuangLaoXue / shenxianxue. If you can find them - ask them and compare with what I wrote. But I think for most people it's easier to open eyes and explore texts.

you're flattering yourself, I was thinking about this:

freedom of speech is not equal to freedom of confusing people... You can say many times that you've seen Jesus (your words, your freedom, no probs, it's a usual thing), you can believe in "Fufa" being Immortals and so on, but if you, based on such subjective experience, start to teach others what to do, then at least try to put some logical foundation behind your teaching. Because your words contradict what Daoist teachers teach, contradict texts, and it confuses people who are trying to sort out, hesitating, and haven't found a good way yet. Then you insult people they have no balance... Are you able to understand that it's not correct at all? If not, ask "Jesus" or whoever else is on call today )) Your own experience, described in many places on this forum, can't support your own claims that you "understand Dao", or "learnt from Lao Zi". So it's your responsibility to care about your good name and claims of results, nobody forced you to say what you were saying. Any freedom has many responsibilities, if you don't know it yet. p.s. Kind of strange to watch, how political slang penetrates into spiritual teachings: "freedom of speech", "dictatorship", "taking away there freedom of speech and their thoughts", "abusers", "good name"... Again, it's all about mind.