opendao

We? bro, you're alone in your attempts to pretend to be Chinese without being raised as Chinese. I bet you'll never be. No "rooting" yet? You said that. no probs, you've seen what you've seen. The last post was about "brainwashed freaks" pretending to be "enlightened people". You're free to say that it's about me, but it would be not completely true. Just because I don't pretend, I'm just passing the working knowledge over, what approaches work and what don't. Yes, based on my own experience, experience of my teachers, teachers of the teachers and multiple texts these teachers left to the Dao followers. The hard critics of misconceptions and deviations is a very common subject in Daoist literature and oral teachings, this is my knowledge I'm also sharing, because usually people imagine Daoists as being not involved in any social activities, and not discussing the evil around so "not to disturb sensitive hearts". It is simply false, all the time, started with Lao Zi, Daoist have been very straightforward in their opinions. Now it's hard to accept, but it's again about mind and strict differentiation between evil and good inside - the knowledge many people nowadays exchange to the "no rules" and "all paths are the same" formula. Any other questions about me is better to address in PM, and I'm hoping to see your opinion about "mind training in Lao Zi or Zhuang Zi", because this topic is very important for anybody looking for progress in Dao cultivation: in the beginning what we think and understand can define completely the entire future life.

as much as you are Chinese by mentality... So no, I'm not and never been.

Your sarcasm is taken, but the point wasn't about me. My small role is just to translate and explain as much as I can. Haha, no improvement for you. Things have to be defined, good and evil have to be separated, mind has to be clear about their difference... How else to define your "speech"? And I really love your last cry here: http://thedaobums.com/topic/39346-misconceptions-of-qigong-neidan-alchemy/?p=669962 "direct connections between Daodejing and neidan are ignorant fabrications. While the greed and incompetence of the neidan entrepreneurs are certainly to be blamed, but the real reason for their inanities is deeper：They are not Chinese". Not barking? Well, then what it is? Do you think anybody can respect you for such BS? Btw, you are Chinese as much as I'm a ballerina... I'm about the mindset.

I got used, it is so common, many "enlightened" folks can't accept that what they've done and promoted all their life has no practical sense and has no relation to any spiritual tradition they are claiming to be a part of... Usually it's very sad (and gives no pleasure) to discuss all the mistakes they make, but "the truth is not a sweet remedy". If we take a look in the history of Daoism, we can see that many great teachers had to reveal misconceptions so people can see the Way. It seems such dirty work is unavoidable if we care about people and want to help them to get out of the fog of arrogance...

You got arguments, try to prove your claims have any foundations. So far just childish emotions and lame advices. So what about "yin-yang symbol coming from shamans"? "shamanism as a root of Daoism"? etymology of Dao with antlers? I can add a bit more to make it more evident: "being one with things" vs Ziran? "everything is Dao" vs "it's not the Great Dao"? If you have wisdom - prove it. If you learnt from "Lei Erh" (maybe Pu-erh?) in your dreams, then why all your Daoism is at "Tao of Piglet" level? Rhetoric questions, obvious answers, pu-erh as a teacher... Yeah, I had to take a look at your web-site. Sad story, "baptised shaman, national champion and incarnation of immortal"... Such a gibberish. p.s. daoist forums are really full of brainwashed freaks, but there are good people who are seeking and they deserve to know that new-age shamanism is not the tradition of Dao. With examples, so they can do own research and compare. It works, I know very well. It's an experience I'd like to share ))

I've discussed it already. No, it's all chaotic and mixed up, such mentality leads the same way as other things go. Lao Zi taught how to go in the opposite direction.

every time you have nothing to do you're trolling here showing your "utter ignorance" and "parroting" sacred texts you have no idea about. When you're bashed by own lack of knowledge, you start singing "greedy daoists" mantra, laying about me and the school I represent. You're poor. Spiritually poor. And there is no practice to heal you, which is kind of sad. Anything else about the topic, or again nothing but trolling?

don't worry, I got your point. No path, no knowledge, full acceptance of any deviations. Not Dao, thanks to confirm again. Xin is not Spirit, so I'm not sure what you're talking about again. and you say wrong things after that... let's better listen those who really encountered Dao :-\

Well, some intelligent people cannot even do connections between these two phrases... Maybe they are just not intelligent? For those who can't read, one more time: Lao Zi speaks about the necessity of taking the body into the consideration in Dao practice, not about "throwing it away" as some "researchers" imagine. The phrase above is about the pre-requirements for the practice, and the body is one of them. There is no contradiction between them. It's impossible to use the body if there is no body. Anything else you're confused?

You can name it "twist", but when person says "I'm visiting Lao Zi", there is no twist needed, everything is pretty straightforward: we're waiting for the wisdom of prophecy. So far nothing even close. The role of texts by stages: Before people find a teacher, they learn texts to find a teacher. When they practice with a teacher, they learn from texts directly, because it's what teacher asks them to do. Because it's a norm in passing the tradition from roots to leaves. When they teach, they use texts to explain Dao to people, who cannot read texts and understand them because of their low level of development. ----------- Such thing, as understanding beyond words, "a way no one else does", cannot contradict the way the text is used in the tradition, where practical results are the only proof of correctness. If people start speaking about something that contradicts the practice, we're waiting for practical proofs, comparable to the results, achieved in the tradition. So far nothing comparable to Dao and De. Heart is Mind. What "connects things" is not Xin. Btw, it's even in texts, it's a basic thing you need to know even before you start the practice...

Right. Simple. That's why Daoism starts with the body, without thinking "body is bad or good". It just is as a fact, and it needs a transformation. Again Lao Zi describes exactly that the body after the cultivation is different then ordinary. That's the way.

No. Shamans-Wu were absolutely different, there are no any reliable textual or archaeological proof to say what you're saying. "Yin-Yang symbol" came very late, and not from shamans. Traditional ancient Daoism, Huang-Lao Xue, has started with Huang Di and Lao Zi, then was changed into religion by Zhan Daoling and later by Wang Chongyang. No shamans. The only widespread idea, applicable here, is tha Lao Zi was from the kingdom of Chu, and there were a lot of shamans in Chu. It proves really nothing. No, it's a wrong etymology. No shamans, no antlers. That's good, and I told that such encounters have signs, traces, and bring wisdom non-comparable to the ordinary intellect. I didn't tell that, you simply are not careful. I told that nowadays many people claim they saw immortals, but such encounters leave no traces in them and their understanding of the tradition of shenxian-Immortals. It means that their experience or an illusion, or communication with Yin world - world of ghosts and lower spirits. That's exactly what shamanism is all about. And obviously I couldn't say anything opposite, because I'm from such lineages. Yu Xian Pai is translated as "Meeting with Immortals", so this concept is quite important for this school. But again you put in one row communication and cultivation, but the tradition is not about the communication. Being practising MA for the entire life, I know you didn't have achieved much in internal martial arts this way. Because of the nature of transmission of skills. Being judge and winning medals have no relation to Kung Fu, and you would know it if you had a teacher... Again, it's not an argument, because we're speaking about Dao cultivation and becoming an Immortal. The history knows very few examples of learning directly from shenxian without human teachers, and sure you can humbly say that you're the same as Huang Di or Zhang Daoling, but let's assume the opposite as more realistic. That's another popular misconception about Daoism. If a person doesn't know how to "follow dao", and doesn't do it regularly, then such person follows the natural flow of things from raise to decline, from birth to the death. It's not about Great Dao of Lao Zi. Read Lao Zi, it's all in the text.

Right. Knowledge can be different at different stages. Mind can be different. Daoist use terms like "Dao Mind" (daoxin) to highlight the difference. All people have it, we call it "intuition". But usually we don't listen to this "direct knowledge", because its voice is very weak, it's not reliable, so we got used to use our ordinary mind (shishen). Daoist approach is to change this ordinary way, reverse it and make "Dao Mind" the ruler by empowering it using Ming. Then the sage just "sees" directly changes of the Cosmos around and inside and act accordingly, without thinking. But to reach this level and make it constant, there are many things where ordinary mind has to discipline itself, get knowledge what to do, and do it according to rules, taught by a teacher, who sees them directly.

Text is irrelevant for you, because you have no relation to any tradition. You're not initiated. Outsider. Profane. That's ok, there are zillion of new-age hipsters doing the same, so you're in a good company under a flag "no rules, no texts, just light and no mind". It has no sense, but why you can't understand "common folk experience" described by Lao Zi then? It's clear that the logic is corrupted, you don't understand Lao Zi in spite of your "multiple visits", and Lao Zi did talk about experience not common at all to ordinary people. "My words are easy to understand and easy to follow, but in the world there is no one who can do that". "Common folk experience"? LOL Sometimes it's better to follow rules and read text instead of "visiting" god knows who. haha, when you're one with Dao, you cannot be in this world and write on forums... You see again you don't know basics. You think you're one with Dao, but from those who are one with Dao you're one with illusions. And it's not some subjective internal opinion, it is something visible outside. For anyone. That the difference between Dao and various deviations. If you're not an "obstruction", and "full of light", then stop a tiger, stop cold, stop death! You cannot? But Lao Zi could! "Common folk experience"? Dawei, it's hilarious. Whatta? no more questions then. It seems to be like a virus, nowadays even hamsters visit Lao Zi but can't understand what Lao Zi did write... In the world of alive traditions such "experiences" are categorized as sickness. Take care! ------------------- Going back to the topic, I can only say that intellectual work is very necessary in the beginning to avoid such sickness as described in details above. Mind has to think clear and logically. Even sceptical sometimes. Any attempts to skip this phase and "free" the mind and be "one with things" just lead to a bad fortune. In ancient schools, there are techniques to restore proper mind work. Moreover, with the practice, mind can work better and better. Because of Yuan Qi. p.s. "There is no xian who didn't read texts".

strange words again: what you're talking is Taiji, infinite Yin-Yang "coming and going". It's not Dao, it's not primordial. I'm talking about the experience, but even in texts you can find it. ??? from the experience of Dao practitioners such idea has no sense, nor support in text. "Following Dao", "cultivating Dao" - such things are commonly used and it's the only way to stop separation from Dao. my experience or lack of thereof cannot make you understand basics of the alchemy... You say that "path is to interact with light beings". But Lao Zi speaks nothing about it. His path is different. All Neidan lineages don't use it, they use other methods. And we can find similar ideas only in some religious Daoism, which was often a combination of folk, shaman and other things. "Time, dimensions, spirits" - such things can be very different. It can be an illusion, it can be the yin world, it can be the Great Dao. You're discussing Dao here, but all your experience cannot be mapped into anything in Lao Zi's Dao. You're trying to imply some your experience that I probably don't have, but really it's about nothing. And your experience is not so great, and mine you don't know at all :-\ So, to paraphrase your own words, when you experience anything mentioned by Lao Zi, come back and share. Then we can discuss Dao schools, and what I'm "stick with", "repeating" and so on. You know, if all Dao students repeat the same for thousand years, maybe it's better to listen? Maestro, we're waiting for your explanations. Please reveal the truth, as many times before, so we can laugh, as many times before. The phrase is simple as is, the translation is bad as all other English variants, but sure you need to show off your confused ego.

well, you don't follow Dao then. The topic is about Lao Zi's legacy and its understanding of the mind training. And Lao Zi says very clearly about Hung and Po, about Xing and Ming, about words, about rules, and about other things irrelevant to you. it's possible to learn form shenxians, and the history knows such examples (very rare), but there are signs of that, and there is wisdom about the tradition (any, they all were very similar) after such encounters. On this forum the number of such experiences is quite high, but so far nobody could even explain basics of Dao without popular mistakes, which shows the real sources of the knowledge of such "channellers": books and personal experience with the gui-spirits. People become ghosts to see ghosts, but can a being from lower world teach how to ascend higher and become xian? No. So let's be clear: shamanism is not Dao, there is a big difference in them. And Daoist schools actually treat all encounters with "light beings", "buddhas", "immortals" etc as a form of illusion. Real meeting is not like that even visual or by description.

I'm not about popular psychology where people believe they can change the reality by changing or stopping their mind. It changes nothing really, because it's just about one half of the equation (Xing). And the perception can go up and down without end: rules, no rules... Because there is no unity and stability yet (Xing+Ming). And by ignoring the reality we cannot force the reality to ignore us So I'm about another half, that you both skip (Ming). Lao Zi: Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Thus limits are set not by the mind. Mind just follows underlying energies. Then limits are gone not because of changing the perception, but because the inner energy changes. Can you transform Ming without rules? It's impossible. Can you do it by stopping mind? No. There are rules and limits that help to practice, and those that are against the practice. That's for sure. But to teach to throw all limits and rules away would be a mistake.

Good example what wrong pills do with people. Choose carefully what to eat practice... Going back to the topic, obviously what we teach we've got for ourselves, as this is the only way to teach.

I doubt your logical twists can prove anything, same as my words. Who wants to believe in no-sense you spread, they are free to do it. Others can check and make own opinion, based on experience and personal encounters with the schools and its teachers. In Dao it's called fate. Some people have it, many don't. C'est la vie.

You feel it right: while you're trolling and crying that "Neidan is a dead end", other people are getting results of the process (!) called Neidan.

To experience the miracle of Preheaven Qi is a rare gift, non-comparable to anything else. And only this work can really be named "internal cultivation". And such cultivation has an unlimited potential because of the forces it uses. More opinions about Daode Center, that teaches traditional Daoist methods of Neidan, mentioned by Antares: http://forum.daode.ru/f1628/students-testimonials-5-months-trainings-35841/?langid=1#Content

the dramatic contradiction between such naive thoughts and reality means that there are rules. And humans are engaged in wars not because they want it or not, but because they are humans. It's innate. It's unavoidable. Mind alone cannot overcome the law of duality. So Lao Zi and other Daoist sages didn't rely on mind. Thoughts can be more beneficial or less, but they can't break the rules people have to follow. The only "train of thought" possible is to focus all thoughts on cultivating the Dao.

Right, Zhang Zhuang is a very important method. It's different in Qigong, Martial Arts and Neidan though. And has many variations to get different effects. In China some teachers say: "there is dead zhang zhuan, and alive one". But in the West people learn the "dead" version (="stagnant water"), and get no effect, so they have to "stop that torture". Also what people don't want to realize, that before standing in zhang zhuang, they have to learn a lot... And it's impossible by video (however I've never seen any video with such explanations).

The concept of Yin-Yang is more complex: 1) in Xian Tian (Preheaven) there is no Yin-Yang, so the hidden real cosmos is free from the law of Taiji 2) Alchemical and other interpretations, when they are correct, can be different, because the ancient sages have seen the dynamic of changes: Taiji - Liang Yi - Si Xiang ... - Wan Wu So on every level Yin and Yang are different. Classical Daoism speaks about "embracing yin" at one stage, but become fully Yang and free of Yin-Yang influences later. Yin and Yang are separated, but connected. They affect and change each other, but they are not One. Wan Wu, 10000 things are affected by Taiji law: the fight and change each other. When people feel unity of everything, they realize the Qi, which is really everywhere. But inside that underlying background there are dualities and separation, this is the basis of Daoist cosmology.

can you share some quotes from the book where Hun, Po, Yi and Xin are connected?