opendao

Only if such "go into emptiness" leads to yin-soul exiting the body. But usually people don't practice it so (it's hard), then it's just to relax the heart and calm down the mind.

I got your kinda humour but please don't mess Zhen Dao ("pointy elbow" Vitalii) with 遇仙派 (Vitalii didn't use such name, maybe because he didn't know about it) - the current patriarch of Yu Xian Pai, who is not Russian, and not a Putin agent afaik, he can be very surprise of such ignorance and attempts to simply idiotically do claims after reading wuxia forums... Though knowing human nature, there is little surprise in such behaviour. If you (or your funny friends from "ouija") have any further questions about "private road to promised land", then it's better not to make false assumptions, but ask questions first. Because even self-proclaimed Quanzhen "knowledgeable masters" like Vitalii or Taoist Texts know that it's bad to lie. So try not to follow their steps. Vitalii is selling tea now, just FYI, it seems to be the only thing you really care about...

as usual, all "arguments" by TT in 1 silly paragraph. without even any attempt to think logically. New year, same lies. No probs. RIP

Hard to say, it can be different in every case: maybe you attracted something by your practice, maybe became vulnerable, maybe it was a combination of your illusions and some energy process... Many variants. Main idea that such things are not toys to play with.

depletion of yuan jing, so the student has to start over to restore it

Oh, there are many weird things... Even in big cities, depressed, weak, suicidal people can experience very strange encounters with yin-beings in human bodies. It's scary. In dreams humans are very vulnerable. Special places as well. But if you are stable, in harmony, strong, and seek any other-world experiences (out of interest or looking for power) then you need no worry, it's hard for "them" to find a key from you. Sure, if you don't really practice Neidan: then the situation is different, you become too desirable for yin-beings because of the excess of Yang, and you need to know special methods how to protect yourself in dreams and in reality. Also we need to understand that for the "lower world habitants" human beings are just food and source of energy... Just my 2 cents, I hope somebody can tell more, my experience is limited, though I don't want to repeat it ))

thx to share, maybe it'll stop someone from crazy experiments... Usually similar things happen in dreams, but you dis-balanced you spirit-Shen by that third eye practice and it leaded to that. It's dangerous, and after such episodes alchemy students have to start over the practice... So there are methods how to prevent that, the teacher has to give it or all efforts will be in vain....

You speak about religious institutional Daoism, which is not the beginning, but decline of Dao teaching When I speak about Dao, I speak about Dao teaching, which was summed up by Lao Zi, but even he wasn't the creator. "Daoism" is just a term (in English), it means only "a teaching about Dao", nothing more. Same as "Buddhism", "Atheism" and other "isms", it doesn't imply any religious movement, temples etc To say that internal alchemy had their origins in external, is to follow the logic of scholars who are very far away from any Neidan practice: if Neidan used some language of Waidan, it says very little about its methods. Same as when Dao texts use Buddhist terminology, it doesn't mean Dao methods were taken from Buddhism... Neidan is the same as the Ancient Dao of Lao Zi. And DDJ can confirm that, if we stop trying to fit the modern pseudo-Daoism onto the alchemy texts. Instead we need to find the oneness of all traditional schools and teachings, the core of what we call "Daoism" or "Alchemy" today. Again, DDJ is a corner stone in such process, and you can see how many factors affect the translation of any chapter.

that's clear, but such manipulation create an illusion of meaning and lead to confusions: Those who are enlightened, sit in silence. Those who think they know something, are forever talking. There are no highlighted words in the Chinese text. Just as example. that's all good. Without trying, how to achieve anything? Etymology is also very important. But real practical knowledge of Dao cultivation is what really works. well, that's why I decided to write at least something about it. For now, there is no one translation of DDJ that explains its meaning correctly. Daoism is just a term. Read historical annals, you'll find who were initiated in what tradition. Shortly speaking, it's wrong what you're talking. If Laozi was "its own thing" then he couldn't initiate Dao schools. They all are from him if you don't know. And it's not just exaggeration. just curious, can you name a lineage, results they've achieved and your source of knowledge how exactly they achieved that? And we don't have any problems with this practice: if performed correctly, it helps in the beginning. But it's not a main method in Southern Schools, and there are more efficient ones for the same purposes, without side effects that are criticized. And sitting work on further stages is different from "dull sitting", that's right. It doesn't mean that "Dazuo" as taught, lets say, by Huineng, doesn't work. The problem is that nowadays it's hard to find people who teach it correctly. Nobody positions our understanding as an "absolute truth", but if it explains texts, oral teaching, other traditions (Buddhist, Yoga, European Alchemy at least), AND bring practical results not available in other schools, but confirmed in texts, then it's hard to find any space for mistakes. Sure, various deviations, Qigong-clones and neo-taoists don't fit into the frame of the ancient Dao, but who cares if they produce no comparable result? All such questions have been investigated by many generations of researchers (see the biography of Liu Hua Yang at least). So I'd really want to know what contradicts with what ))

oh yeah... "minor mistakes". Charlatans and liars. To continue about ghost immortals, we see the danger and we see those who tell us "it's ok, nothing to worry". Who to believe: charlatans or Immortals like Zhong Li?

non-Chinese guy just pointed another non-Chinese guy to the fact that Taoist Texts is not initiated into any Daoist tradition, that's why her linguistic pseudo-abilities (it means very poor ones) have absolutely no any weight on this forum for a while. Do you have any other arguments? Or you'd like to recall how you did translate qixue as "Qi Lair". Seriously, if Eva Wong knows perfectly Classic Chinese, why she makes so many mistakes even you could see, ah? why she just skip parts she can't translate? We've discussed it and as usual you just retired. Who to believe? Not you obviously.

There are a few things to say about Dao De Jing, its translations, and how the text is studied by Daoists: 1) there is no need to add words, that are simply not in the received Chinese text. 2) chapters in Dao De Jing are connected, and it's hard to understand any without exploring others. 3) same as when we learn, we need to stop thinking we know anything valuable when we explore any sacred text. If we start a translation with wrong pre-assumptions, what good can we get as a result? 4) Dao De Jing is about practice to transform into a sage, it is about Dao. If we know nothing about the Dao, if we're not initiated, then how we can guess what Lao Zi wrote to his students? He didn't write to everyone, to people. He wrote to students, to sages and kings (Dao adepts at that time). 5) there are many layers of sense in DDJ, some of them do open only at very top levels of practice. It's a long and repeatable process. About chapter 56. It's not about meditation. It's not an instruction for a student what to do. It has a different meaning. Let's take dustybeijings translation as the closest to the Chinese text: 智之者弗言 One who knows does not talk, 言之者弗智 One who talks does not know; Here is the sense of Dao De Jing: an explanation of the main method how to cultivate the Great Dao. I don't feel right to express openly the meaning, at least not until my Teacher opens that, but I'll try to give some hints. Just take it as another point of view to push the limits )) First of all, --- One who knows does not talk --- Does Lao Zi talk here? Yes. Obviously, he does. Does it mean he doesn't know? No. Obviously, he knows. To understand this chapter (and many other places in DDJ) this paradox has to be solved.

Right. Both for yin-soul travelling and yangshen travelling there are special pre-requirements to avoid the danger. It's not done alone, other adepts are needed to help in the beginning. For yin-soul there are special methods to restore the body. Etc. It's a complex technology with many details, and these details are not in books.

Right, people don't understand, ignorant new-age teachers, "translators" and "researchers" just promote techniques how to become a ghost, leave the body, go to "astral travelling" and become an easy victim for real ghost-immortals and other yin-beings, that can occupy the physical body while its owner is away... People look for enlightenment, but don't know anything about "other world", thinking it's just scary fairy tales of ancient teachers. As we see, the tradition (any true tradition, not only Dao) is against such techniques, and clearly inform people with open eyes about the danger. The good thing that people are much weaker now then in ancient times, and not so many can really achieve ghost immortality or get any success in "astral travelling". Which is very good, in my opinion.

No. If it would be so it wouldn't be so dangerous as expressed in texts and oral teachings. They have no choice, they are doomed to be in that "immortal limbo" (very precise, thx) forever. As I told earlier, the only chance for them is some real immortal (not another ghost) who can save them somehow (I believe by forcing them into Samsara again, but I'm not sure - not really my business yet). You really believe in ghost immortals at TaoBums? )) Or saints writing here after saving another guixian? ))

You're a real Santa, I knew it. Funny at least. But your translation is just wrong, same as Eva's. I was avoiding a real translation, just pointed where to look for. I haven't translated 止 as "stopping", for "stopping" another character is used obviously. Based on your translation, you don't know it, and I really don't want to explain it to you... Just full translation then: 终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已 Finishing without place to return, merely just stops to reborn, that's all. You're clever, maybe with Eva you'll get one day what character is for "stop" in this phrase... Btw, 投胎 is a Buddhist term, it means "reincarnation" and is not just literal "entering embryo". I hope I return your gift back to you. Enjoy and don't forget to save your grumpy soul before pointing fingers to others. P.S. another attempt, better then yours: http://thedaobums.com/topic/6793-yin-spirit-yang-spirit-and-spirit-travel/ "From this place, there is no rebirth and one must abandon their self." I don't agree, but at least 松永道 didn't loose the main message as you and Eva Wong...

no probs to disagree with Zhong Li and other immortals, esp in what such immortals speak about immortality. Sure you know better.

Ghost immortal is not just a ghost. It's "worst". It has no chance to reincarnate. That's why it is so bad to become a guixian. See Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji: 钟曰：“鬼仙者，五仙之下一也。阴中超脱，神象不明，鬼关无姓，三山无名。虽不轮回，又难返蓬瀛。终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已。” Obviously, Chinese text says clearly that Ghost Immortals are not in Samsara. It means they don't reincarnate. And next sentence confirm that: 止于投胎 - stop to be reborn. "That's all". So precise... P.S. MooNiNite, was it you who thought that Dalai Lama is a Celestial Immortal? No offence, no, just asking...

no worries, it was Taoist Text, he has a strange love to express "inherently false" ideas in a form of ultimate truth agree. What's interesting is that humans made computers to mimic their mind, but now people become more and more like robots... it's not a Daoist way to wait for a physical death, it's considered to be too late to get any answers )) Sure it's just a speculation, but it's a productive one based on practical experience of many generations.

We need to distinguish ghosts-gui and ghost-immortals (guixian). Ghosts are ghosts, nothing really to speak about ))) But ghost-immortal is a person who has achieved that by practice. By a wrong practice, obviously. In Daoist schools it's considered to be not good, a wrong path, deviation, end of all hopes (underline what you like more): as Wells said, such person cannot reincarnate and is doomed to live in lower worlds forever until some saint being saves such an unlucky "immortal".

yep. It's the standard process of refinement in alchemy: refine jing, then jing into qi, qi into shen. Instead of deadly yin become completely yang = Qian.

Even if we write Mind with capital M, it is still just an ordinary human mind: combination of memory, thoughts and feelings. It can be better and more auspicious for the practice, it can destroy any attempts to practice... Anyway that's all postheaven. In Daoist tradition it's called Xin 心. We can stop all that by using "meditation" of any sort. In Daoist texts such practice was named 枯禪 - "dull sitting". Many people believe it's a state of Anatman, "not me", "Dao mind" etc. But it's just a state of no thoughts, when humans can't do anything except starring at one point. Many people believe that they can "raise Yang" through that, but they just exhaust their innate yuan qi, because of the raise of yin, which is useless. "The sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death" - hard to say better. So there is no any Mind or Higher Consciousness except ordinary consciousness every person has. Same as awareness, which is a function of consciousness. You can find some interesting insights even by analysing the etymology of the English words, it helped me a lot to understand what is consciousness, and that modern ideas about "Consciousness Universe" are kind of stupid - Universe is much better then always mistaken human mind: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=conscience&allowed_in_frame=0 http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=mind http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spirit Preheaven Shen-Spirit is different. We cannot feel it directly. In ordinary life it manifests very rare: the innate Shen is weak and dormant, that's why it has Yin line in the center (Fire trigram), and it needs a solid Yang line from the Water trigram to get the power and "wake up". This is the alchemy to unite Xing (Shen) and Ming (Qi). Basically, that's the only relation between Qi and Shen we have to care about: Qi is needed for Shen to fulfil its purpose. And such process is started with the mind, by proper thoughts and logic, then "Mind-Xin is Dao" is explained. > Apech: "I think the idea that jing-qi-shen is a spectrum and not three entirely separate things is commonly mentioned." Right. So any allusions to "flash drive and files" have no sense. There is a very important question what really reincarnates (if any), but ancient Daoist texts avoid this subject, because practically it's counter-productive.

spirit (n.) mid-13c., "animating or vital principle in man and animals," from Anglo-French spirit, Old French espirit "spirit, soul" (12c., Modern French esprit) and directly from Latin spiritus "a breathing (respiration, and of the wind), breath; breath of a god," hence "inspiration; breath of life," hence "life;" also "disposition, character; high spirit, vigor, courage; pride, arrogance," related to spirare "to breathe," perhaps from PIE *(s)peis- "to blow" (cognates: Old Church Slavonic pisto "to play on the flute"). But de Vaan says "Possibly an onomatopoeic formation imitating the sound of breathing. There are no direct cognates." http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=spirit Absurdity is not to have any practical understanding what you're talking about, dear non-commercial pseudo-daoist?

in our system we learnt daogong -> baduanjing -> 5 animals->some other methods as the preparation to Wu-Liu Pai alchemy. Baduanjing and 5 animals are good old traditional qigong (yangsheng) sets. But it's hard to find a proper variant nowadays to learn. Anyways, both baduanjing and 5 animals require a good ability to move and manage post celestial qi in the body. Their goal is to further improve of channel system and to work with the inner organs. Now we prefer Yuxianpai methods as more effective to achieve the same.