opendao

we've heard it many times before last 10000 years ))) Wrong is still wrong, but right is more often confused with wrong. Our misery is the result of our deeds, and deeds of our ancestors, so it's better to think positive and start building our life by ourselves without waiting somebody will descend and help.

the gates are open (and always have been), but people prefer to say they are not invited. Nobody can drag you to Heavens against your will, but nobody stops you from doing it by your efforts. I really don't understand such complains. Dao cannot be given to the humankind, it's just technically impossible. What can be written, is already written. The rest can be passed only through the personal encounter with immortals... It's not something that can be packed and sold in malls. That's why the name of our school is Yu Xian Pai: Meeting the Immortals. Without it nothing works. And never worked, in any school.

You're very mistaken here. Neidan is not even a sport. Your past experience can completely disappear without practice, and you will fall into illusions again if you don't have actual state now. If you've never practised Neidan, how you can write anything about it? It's naive and stupid. "confusing an author of a text with the actual principles pointed out in the text" - it's a huge mistake to separate the personality of the author from what the author writes or translates. Every single piece of creation is a result of what the author has inside. Even if he copies/pastes ancient texts, his impurity and false views can lead to a pre-selective view, that's why we have so many ancient texts with mistakes, missed parts, chapters order broken etc. You've never really worked with the original texts, obviously. do you understand yourself what you've said? I'm telling about the complexity and difficulty of Neidan practice, you're about commodity and consumers. You're speaking about yourself? Maybe it's you, who has never opened any book in Chinese, is a spoiled consumer? "Give me a secret, greedy Daoist, because there are no secrets and I already know everything or even more", that's what you're trying to imply constantly as a crying baby. I know that you don't understand allegories... It was "new age" for that time, obviously, with similar principles and results. you're repeating Taoist Texts so often, so I really think you're twins. The mistake here is that I don't need to promote anything, because Dao is not something ("product"), but it's an absence of anything the mind can stick to. So I, as many other people before, speak about what Dao is Not, first of all, because that's what triggers real changes in people. Obviously, you don't know the tradition, you know only the greedy world where you live. Greedy people see only money and business affairs, but people who are looking for sacred, can see something more. For this they don't need a master degree, but just a soul looking for sacred. You're so long here, Innersound, but you see only what your soul can see. That's another reason I don't believe you: your practice brings no change in what you write. Sorry, it's so personal, and you will scream you favourite mantra "ad hominem-eminem" again, but you made so many personal insults towards myself and various Neidan schools, so I repeat: "The text cannot be separated from the author's spiritual level". Going back to the topic, I think there are no more questions about celibacy. Pseudo-qigong can go to a cave and celibate (don't forget to finally stop farting and use Internet). Those who are interested in Dao, can compare various materials here and find a proper way, according to their internal intentions. It can be a monastic life, internal alchemy with celibacy or not, external alchemy or even pair cultivation. But you need to find a teacher and understand books under teacher's guidance. There is no short cuts, nor "shared open source" knowledge about Neidan practices, so I wish you luck not to fall into traps of illusions.

again just farting and screams about "half sentences"... Annoying. I quoted the same part as he quoted, but because it's so obviously against his opinion, he starts blaming in lies... Funny, but nothing new. Neidan is a practice, not a process of juggling words as many people mistakenly think. No results, nothing to speak of. So if people see a "logical fallacy" in a desire to find (not in books, of course) authorities who practically know, well, maybe it's a good time to recall that Dao is illogical and cannot be understood by mind or from books. Dao is NOT about swallowing, farting, ejaculation, eating, drinking, sweating. NOT about physical exercises. NOT about "sitting and forgetting". NOT about everything we know or imagine by our consciousness or subconsciousness. Dao is about something we cannot grasp, cannot see, cannot feel. It's before Heaven and Earth, before 10000 things has been born. It's not an emptiness, it's not a movement. It's sacred, concealed and secret. See Lao Zi, this is a foundation. All mistaken views will gone when people grasp the idea of Preheaven and Postheaven.

thanks to confirm by your quotes, that "saliva" in neidan texts is 1) an allegory 2) not an ordinary saliva. I totally agree with that. About Shangqing: For me they are 1) too religious in a bad sense of this word 2) I've never heard about any serious results that can be compared with other schools 3) it seems they've never had ancient Dao methods. So basically it was just new-age without any reliable knowledge transmission. In the modern time, again, nothing interesting. So their views on celibacy can be absolutely irrelevant to the practice of Dao. Also, about sources. You guys quote modern translators, one of them doesn't practice at all, second practices some modern dazuo and daoyin. It doesn't prove anything, but it's something important. If we speak about Neidan practice, let's take into consideration, first of all, masters who have results, and who learnt from other masters, known by their achievements. Because even Shangqing has a lot of texts, and I doubt somebody in the English world has ever researched their value from _practical_ point of view.

something like that, this is a state of no-separation between Xing and Ming. That's why Great Dao is against the natural flow of things.

wrong, think again.

yes. And only people with "clear hearts" can achieve that place. That's why proper training is so important.

we are what we eat

Western science is in a trap of physical material dogma, I don't see any parallels with the Neidan experience. Cerebrospinal fluid is just a fluid, it's not yuan jing. And usual saliva is just a saliva, it can be a byproduct of the training in any qigong set, or we can chew something and get more saliva ))) Or just even think about something tasty... Dao is sacred, saliva is profane. You describe a postheaven activation of leg channels... It's not Yin Heel activation, there are many other regular channels. And Yin Heel is the beginning, while "breathing by heels" comes after certain achievements in the practice, it needs special activation etc. I wish it would be so easy as you describe, but then we would have thousands of saint people around, because many people can do such "skin pulsation", it can even lead to the "breath using skin", but it's still not the same...

I agree, it's very "castanedish" and RPGish. People love it though... In classics and alive Daoist masters, I recall nothing similar. One of the main principles is Wenwu, a balance between Martial and Cultural. I don't see such principle here. Another new-age thing is to treat Daoism as an art of "acceptance". Even in this short essay, I don't understand how "acceptance" can help people to achieve "What do they truly want"... The main motivation is NOT to accept things as they are, and move from struggling against the flow to the desired transcendent state. But I see such active position in Bruce's writings, it contradicts the idea of acceptance, so maybe he defines acceptance somehow different.

to get proofs of the extraordinary, one needs to make extraordinary efforts

saliva is an allegory. Same as "breathing using heels" in Chuang zi, it's not about physical processes. The books were written for students, not for outsiders.

right. People nowadays usually don't know how to build true relationships, and don't understand, how it can be beneficial for a spiritual practice and Dao. Those rare individuals who were born to be hermits, they don't read the Internet, they are already in mountains. Because it is their innate nature, they cannot live another way. But they are very very rare.

best pearl ever. <<Saliva increases yuan jing>>. No comments.

a lil bit more from Noisysound's narcissistic blog:

The quotes you made, they all are 1) from a person who achieved nothing, but you don't care, you love to pick random quotes from anywhere if they support your opinion. 2) they tell nothing about celibacy. Obviously, "The only method is to shut the genital gate" proves nothing, and it's the most strong argument in your list. Maybe the book speaks about cutting penis away? ))) You're a master of reading between lines, why do you discard such a powerful method? Joke, don't do that. And nocturnal emissions are stopped by absolutely different method, moreover, celibacy just makes the situation worse, but it was discussed many times here by various people. 3) Let's quote the entire sentence, so you don't cry again as crazy: Maybe we have different bodies, but in mine nothing drains away continuously. So here Zhao, who knew really little, doesn't speak about anything physical. Human body is not an old car ))) 4) all these emissions (sex, nocturnal) are results of the Leakage, not it's cause. By celibacy the same, you're fighting with the result, not the cause. Sure, the most visible and devastating results of the leakage are about sex and nocturnal emissions, but it's only for men. For women situation is different, and if you stop ignoring it, you will understand that celibacy cannot help ))) So all your words about "hilarious lies" are just bs. They cost nothing. Just illusions of inattentive mind.

Sad, but you still got nothing. What you explained here and in that Wang Mu thread (I've finally read your opus just to understand again where you're taking your opinion from) is no more then a new-age theory about some unusual postheaven processes in the body. It's not even "Qigong" in it's classical form, it's not Neidan. It's a way of creating a "false elixir" based on postheaven ingredients. And yes, you need the celibacy to do it as far as I know. Nowadays, there are many systems teaching that, and there are zillions of books explaining this wrong path since ancient times. The entire "craze" was about the difference between "false" and "true" elixir, between modern qigong-like deviations and classical Daoism / Neidan (they are obviously the same for those who know). Many people have grasped it, and I'm really happy about this fact, even if they preferred other schools. But now they understand the difference, and won't follow the way down so easily... If you recall, the first mistake I've pointed out in your Taoist Yoga explanation was about your understanding the "leakage" as a physical leakage of sperm through the penis point. This is wrong, but all your proofs and lengthy discourses about celibacy are based on that false assumption. Find a teacher who can explain you what is Dao. It seems nobody can grasp it from books nowadays. I remember myself, I've also done multiple experiments and I was absolutely sure I understand ancient yogi and taoists. Thanks God, I haven't tried to teach anyone or write much on forums... Now I can only laugh on all my "100% sure" assumptions made at that time. It was sooo wrong, but sometimes you repeat them word by word. Including the celibacy ;-\ Though you have more scientific language, but that's a real stopper for you, it makes you think too physical.

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat And I don't have any ideas why some people are full of something. I respond to the text given, and the text is full of accuses without any arguments. So no accuses, no response.

with all pleasure, as soon as he stops barking about "greedy taoists", "seminars makers" and "fascist neidan schools".

insane logic, true negativism in all its beauty

for _your_ level

you cannot use postheaven in the oven. You confuse the cause ("refinement") and the results ("no emotions").

normally trolls don't complain after throwing shit to others. You're miserably trying to express all your negativism towards Neidan schools, but you never provide any argument. You lie and troll. So take your pudding back to your face, keep calm and don't cry. Speaking about the topic, you provided one fantasy story and really think it's an Argument? I told you about Nanzong, but trolls are blind and deaf, all they want is to express their P-p-p-personality. Just to cry then, "ad hominem, I'm under attack"

Right, it can be worse. It's really about person and his/her fate, what school it was possible to find etc. And it's impossible to sublimate jing into qi, nor directly into shen. It seems you think that the main issue is the excess of jing, and it needs to be sublimated into something, but it's very far from the real process in Neidan.... you're speaking just about postheaven jing leakage, but the real leakage is about yuan jing. So if you celibate and "sublimate", you're still in troubles.