opendao

Lao Zi has another opinion. As well as the entire tradition after him. "Physical immortality": it's impossible to understand what Dao is without understanding how it's possible to achieve such a state. The xian leave this world not because they have to, but because they want to...

both columns are postheaven emotions, they don't reduce "energy leakage". Joy can be devastated the same way as pride.

Troll cave's open seminar for serious cultivators ))) Dude, in your post there are so many "logical fallacies", starting with your assumption, that the Qiu Chuji story have any relation to reality... So naive to believe in everything that confirms your point of view (taken out from nowhere). There is also a comic book in Chinese about Qiu Chuji's heroic acts: this is really a level of your knowledge. So a forum anonymous somebody has something to say against the authority of Zhang Boduan and other patriarchs of Nanzong? I bet he has nothing, except a bunch of smart words. Dare to quote Wuzhenpian, where Zhang Boduan clearly states that leaving a family is not a proper way? Obviously, it's not on your bookshelf... There is a very simple thing: if there are results, then the method is right. In Nanzong there are results, and their method has no celibacy. It's not a condition. The end. But trolls can continue to insists that they are "serious cultivators". What do you cultivate, TT? Corn? Pop-corn? Cannabis? ))) You're so boring. Eat your pudding, troll.

Obviously, the translated text doesn't speak about "all and any". If the text speaks about lead, mercury or "elixir", it doesn't mean "all and any waidan"... The text in other (untranslated) parts has very interesting sayings about waidan and its history, you could easily find them, but... OMG, then take a dictionary and translate it better! Show finally that all your words cost at least something, and you're not here just to troll Neidan schools that you obviously hate and completely don't understand. Focus on Kongzi, nobody cares about his legacy so you can post any fantasy you like ))) It says what it says, and says it clear for those who has at least some intuition about Chinese texts. I bet you've never read the text in Chinese, so take an effort, find this part and translate 绝迹. Hint: a context is very important for any proper translation. Not everything you don't understand is a mess.... 布施 had a meaning at that time, and many Buddhists claim that their teaching has no difference with Dao, and many lay adepts had a belief, that by charity they can accumulate "good deeds" and finally become Immortals or Buddhas.

those who know so little about Neidan, what are their concerns when they post questions in the form of definite answers? The fact is that there are NO any high level practitioner nowadays who insists on celibacy. Second fact is that people who insist on celibacy, have no any results, and don't really understand even the basic processes in the body happen during the retention. That's why we see just a binary logic: celibacy or sex. But in reality they both have places. Daoists in temples know how to get benefits from the celibacy, those in Southern School, they know how to practice without necessity of such retention. Even more, there are schools of pair cultivation, where sex is used as the main method.

I hope so as well. I can only add, that "illusory elixir" is not only useless, but also dangerous for the health, and for the mental health as well. And obviously such a way leads to jing overspending. If such practice continues, people have no more possibility to start neidan. p.s. your translation is good, so pls translate something else written by Tian ChengYang. It's so rare at TDB when we can read about classic Neidan approach, and not infinite deviations by illiterate inventors :-)

he is totally right: it's impossible to replenish Yuan Qi no matter how long you celibate ))) Obviously, there are methods (different) in Neidan to replenish yuan jing (and qi, but it's not the same). The book says "pretty straightforward" about the stage when yuan jing is fully restored so it can be purified, and yuan qi is not needed to be restored, but needs to be developed. So the conclusion has no any sense. And Innersound doesn't understand the difference between "leakage" and "sex", so he mistakenly thinks that Taoist Yoga speaks about celibacy. Then a lot of quotes by people who has never restored anything - so boring. Celibacy is used in some schools to fix the effect of the practice, but it's not what really restores yuan jing (and not what develops yuan qi). Retention is not wrong when it's needed. Yuan Qi can be restored and developed. But not by food or celibacy. In ancient schools retention wasn't used at all. Celibacy can harm yin-yang balance very easily, so it's recommended to have normal healthy sex according to the age and the level of practice.

some neidan schools use celibacy at some stages, other schools don't use at all at any stage. Both are right because they get same results (if they don't get, then they are not neidan schools by the definition). But they understand what and why they are doing, while Innersound just guessing without understanding the theory. That's the difference.

yes, but here it changes really nothing: nor zhong nor zong qi can replenish yuan qi by moving down to kidneys, Noisysound.

simple logical mistake: if Zhong Qi moves down to kidneys, it doesn't mean it replenishes yuan qi. Failed again. And sure Veterinary Calendar is the best source of knowledge in Neidan ))) No comments.

Wow, you started to ask wise rhetoric questions...

I don't discuss sacred things with people like you... I replied to SecretGrotto, because other good people can have similar misunderstandings. All your fantasies about celibacy, "penis ionizaton", "glands", "quick fire drill", "Lao Zi touching my teacher" etc I've already commented, even in those Wang Mu thread. You fool yourself by picking quotes that support your opinion, but you're also fooling others. That's bad. Your problem is not in celibacy or horse stance, but in your misunderstanding of very basic things (jing - qi - shen - dao). It's ok, when people don't understand, they ask. But your attitude is way different: "haha, hahaha, hilarious, Taoist Yoga in my misinterpretation of mistranslated text is definitely the only truth ". Ok, no probs, but you get back what you deserve. And you didn't really read what I and other people wrote you about celibacy, so I think you will continue your kilometres of "shared experience" until you "run out" of yuan jing. Then maybe you'll be able to recall what I said, but I really don't care. The main obstacle on Neidan path is not a "secrecy" you cry as crazy on every corner, but people's inability to focus on details and absence of a sincere clear intention to get into the tradition. Without it any book and any teacher are useless.

as usual, you can't read what is written. I haven't implied that I personally know something or don't know. I shared the information as it exists in traditional schools. And there it is secret, and it's valuable info for some people who can read.

yes, "We know that genuine qi is different from yuan qi from the transformation process between them. Genuine qi is the innate qi, present in the spiritual body, and yuan qi is the postnatal qi, present in the physical body." LOL Just another book without any understandings of basics. There are a lot of such quotes. People forgot that to drink water from a dirty source is not very healthy. They quoted Ma ChuanXu, but he is a well known person, and it's obvious that he hasn't replenished anything....

agree, it's a simple Yin / Yang postheaven dis-balance, caused by the life style, food, and improper practices (MCO etc). Sure, retention adds to that. It has no relation to Neidan practice, it has no relation to preheaven Water and Fire. I don't know why people jump to conclusions so quickly.... right. But people prefer to believe that they can reverse food into yuan jing. So naive...

this is good, and he made some considerable efforts to break the common opinion about "spiritual practices", because usually people think only about meditation. I really would like to witness such things as well, but so far I see nothing positive in this direction. Maybe I don't know something, but he is a public person, with a lot of pictures, articles and videos, so same as with Wang Liping, it's really easy to see and compare with real adepts. Maybe those purists don't really see any questions: people don't do any researches, just trying to find a way that satisfy their personal, corrupted by the modern society, taste. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's just emotions and lack of information. When Daoists speak about xiangu (the immortal bone), they speak about it ;-\ About "alchemical fire process": this is the one of the most complex things in Neidan. And the most secret one. So let's wait until Damo or Innersoundqigong will "open source" it. So far I see just "igniting dantien fires" and "quick fire drills" ))) So I prefer to be dogmatic and learn from people who has real results, parallel with Neidan books, describing results of the "fire processes". Btw, such dogmatic approach can save your life, and many-many years of your youth time. But "people prefer side routes" (Lao Zi), prefer to learn on their own mistakes, so I don't really insist and can wait.

what's about mental ill people we see here so often? they will take these exercises and will add them to their insane "systems". So no, don't even ask. Who wants to learn - they have possibilities, who wants to hesitate eternally - they have a nice excuse. Everybody is happy.

Lineage is easy to check, the world of LHBF is small comparing to Taijiquan, for example. Never heard about anybody serious in Australia though... LHBF is VERY specific and, in my humble opinion, has little in common with other internal arts. Wu Yi Hui has published a book. Chen Yi Ren too. To decide genuine or not, you need to learn the forms (not just the main one), and compare, compare, compare... Tedious process, and very confusing. At least for me. I see very little in common of what very respected teachers do now and Wu Yi Hui's postures in the book... I know the history of the book, but still, I see a different type of skills. Same about Chen Yi Ren: I've been very fortunate to see his rare video, so I'm sure it's different from what we can find on youtube. Shortly speaking: if a person looks like he cannot fight, but in reality he wins, then probably this person knows genuine Liuhebafa and can apply it

Try to find Nelson Ma in Van, he will answer all your questions, and he is a good teacher to learn LHBF as LHBF and not as a blend or modern remix as in many other places.

Yangsheng ("nourishing life") are health related methods, invented by Daoists (maybe there are some Buddhist ones, but I still not sure about roots of Yijingjing, for example), but passed down to all people to improve health. Neigong is also based on Daoist legacy, but to get skills needed in Martial Arts. Sometimes it's referred as "hard qigong" now. Qigong as a term was used in 20th century as an umbrella for any energy work, but later it became a synonym of "medical qigong", invented (or forged) in medical institutes in China. So now it's very confusing: there are traditional sets and new "inventions", but both are "qigong". For example, Baduanjing set can be a traditional one from some family school or Daoist temple, or it can be from a medical institute or some "qigong healer". So I think the less confusing term could be "traditional qigong".

good question

this is the first part of the answers to SecretGrotto, the forum engine doesn't like big number of quotes for this you need to meet neidan masters, then the signs will be obvious for you... Wang Liping looks usual for his age, everything else like his extraordinary abilities to affect the weather, is not very related to neidan focus on the understanding of basic Taoist concepts, but again, to compare something here you need to be well versed in the specific literature at least... So just listen to your heart. I'm serious here. that's what I don't get: you compare stones and bananas, then you say that bananas are more effective. you think it's useful, but Neidan teachers can have an absolutely opposite opinion: for example, in our schools such abilities can slow down a student's progress. for SHO I advised you to find quotes about real results of SHO, its place in the transformation etc. All this psychic abilities you listed are not very important in the context of SHO. WLP doesn't. JYSG is not qigong. Generally speaking, Daogong is also not Qigong, but the traditional Yangshenggong / Neigong. And Daogong is not a part of YXP curriculum to be precise. simple: because real SHO is a part of Neidan ONLY, and has no relation to Qigong.

my point was that Wang's teaching doesn't bring any new knowledge that can really explain some hard parts of the classic approach. While WLP books have a lot that haven't been disclosed before. So in one case we see just repeating of the already published words, that's why it confuses people and they see no difference between WLP and Wang Liping. Simply speaking, if somebody repeats that SHO is not about qi, but about elixir, it doesn't mean he experienced that, or his experience has any relation to Neidan. But basically all your comparison is built on this idea. no, from this extrapolation we cannot say that they are the same (or different). It's not enough information, and not enough knowledge about the tradition (texts, first of all). Please don't tell WLP people that their tradition has any overlap with Wang Liping :-) It's very easy to mistake things, because, for example, for SHO only maybe 1/20th of all real signs were disclosed. Everything else is only an oral teaching or very subtle hints in books. So you match this 1/20th with Wang student's single sentence and you see some resemblance. Obviously, it's not enough to do conclusions you do just based on that, right? Elixir is not qi, so pls bring this classification of 10 types, we can try to find there an elixir, but I already have some doubts :-) It doesn't hold, and there are other schools. But because we're not limited just by WLP, we can compare, and see that the principles are similar. And in numerous qigong schools the principles are also the same qigong principles. That's why Wang Liping is a qigong teacher. And the abilities you described, they are also well-known qigong abilities. The fundamental mistake everybody does is to map Qigong experience to Neidan books. It's a way to nowhere, it confuses people a lot, and that's what is really criticized.

probably this guy doesn't know that reciting (and even reading) texts were criticized by many neidan masters as an activity that has no any practical sense... Statistical analysis has its meaning, but as any other textual analysis it has sense only when the researcher has an ability to explain the results. And it can be possible ONLY if this person is initiated into tradition he is trying to explore.

it would be good if it was so, but why Wang himself has no any visible signs of such foundation? Do you really understand what are the results of SHO? Daogong and JYSG don't lead to SHO, their goals are different. But even these techniques you don't know so what's a point to compare systems you have no idea about (Wang's and WLP/YXP)? do you think it's a real result of real SHO? Read more then. It's your fate... But just think about this: in Chinese there is a lot of writings, classic and modern, where some details of real SHO has been disclosed. And what we see in the Wang Liping's books and records of his student don't go beyond that. Strange? Not for me, knowing what fame Wang has in neidan circles in mainland China. So what they name as "elixir" and "SHO" is just something different. And that can be achieved very fast. But it doesn't lead you to Neidan's achievements (any of them). But lead to illness and harm in future. again nothing beyond usual medical qigong. But then he speaks about a lady who opened SHO in a week. Marketing BS. But people are lazy and love fast food stories. So are you so naive to believe that by building a group qi field somebody can create a "real SHO" and become an immortal-saint? Where is your normal natural scepticism?