opendao

did Namkai Norbu achieve Rainbow Body? maybe Tummo results? maybe at least renxian level? He is a public figure, he has a lot of students, his achievements are well known... yes, but BEFORE THAT there are other levels where xing doesn't help. You're trying to jump from ordinary state to celestial immortality by ignoring everything in between. You speak about ming gong, but you don't know it... Spirit Immortality has no relation to ming gong, ming gong has to be done before that. amen. I have no wish to clean such a new-age mess in somebody's head. any proofs? details? or just rumors?

Dear ZOOM. You jump from assumptions to conclusions and back so fast... Instead of trying to understand Ming, you're trying to prove that Ming is not needed at all :-\ well, it explains things this way, because it considers a different correlation between yin/yang and xing/ming. Golden Flower speaks about aspects of Shen, that's why hun is yang and po is yin in its system. Wu-Liu Pai speaks about Water and Fire, their middle parts. Both models are correct. yes, function. But you equal them and get po=shishen. But the text doesn't equal them, it shows only some relations between them. You tried to do the same with light and yuanshen, but came to things that are not in the text (and not in Neidan): like Tao=Qian, or Taiyi="creative"=Qian. It's just a way to bigger mistakes. Ultimate conclusion needs an ultimate proof :-) But do you understand that inside yin we can also find yang and yin, and in this context yin and yang are not the same as the initial yin? Or let's take a trigram for Water: it's yin in general, but it has yang inside... But all these "ultimatums" can be debunked even on a textual level: Anything more you need to understand the importance of Ming? The transformation of Xing is the goal, and GF emphasizes that, but still it follows the traditional way and uses the "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Obviously because there is no any other "way to heavens".

where? Why do you translate Taiyi as "creative"? Qian is pure yang. But it can be a start of the process or it can be a finish of the way back. These states are very different.

none Tao is tao, it is out of yinyang.

Why do you think that Qian is Tao?

1) yuan shen is not Qian 2) it doesn't need to swallow / merge with shi shen. Shishen just disappears because yuanshen gets yang from vitality-water. 3) yuan shen needs an energy for its spiritual activity, so it's impossible to avoid. That's why "vitality-water is a foundation" and it has to be "sufficient" first. About light. Both quotes (yours and mine) about light are correct. As well as, "light is Qian". To do that you need an energy. Yuanshen doesn't have it. If you merge yuanshen (preheaven) with shishen (postheaven), will you have any control on vitality-ming? I don't see how it can be possible even in theory. The Neidan traditional approach works with preheaven sanbao-treasures: Jing, Qi and Shen. We refine them, shishen is not in scope. Also, there is no point to "restore Ling": what was the point to reincarnate if we return to the same state again? Yuanshen needs a vitality for the transformation, that's why human beings have bodies of flesh.

There are different stages of such congealing-"crystalization". But even the beginning is considered to be an advanced achievement. The entire process of transformation takes different time for different people, so it's hard to answer. Some stages can be very long.

Impurities are results of a student's impure life. Yes, it's an important part to save the results of neidan cultivation by preventing yingui. Moral purification also helps. it's possible, but rarely. People live in illusions, created by themselves.

It says just energy-Qi. Nothing is said about spirit-shen or their mix in the human body. Just preheaven Qi of the initial unity. so this is not what I meant :-) It has to be transformed the way Golden Flower describes.

"spirit crystallizing"? what do you mean?

very close :-) Just search www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com for that text. yes. And this is the only method :-) right. Then maybe something else is merging, not Xing and Ming? I didn't tell that. Different explanations for different purposes, but the principle is the same. Why do you think it's a main duality in the text? Why?

By mushrooms and other food you can get better health. That's it, you won't get back any prenatal jing this way. By learning popular qigong exercises by video or through forum messages you will make things even worse. You need a clean source of knowledge. You don't have it so far. I doubt you can find it here. You can find it only inside of yourself, by throwing up everything you collected before. Sorry for bad news.

yes only for some local schools. Try to find Esposito's materials, she made some researches about Golden Flower, its versions, role in different schools etc. no no, I don't think so: 是先天太乙之真气 yes. there is nothing really to replenish in Xing... "Vitality and energy degenerate along with the universe, but the original spirit is still there; this is the infinite." The phrase about "Xing only" is just to underline that it's a true method to attain Dao, not a "side gate". You can see it by the context. In the text you can see a lot of hints about vitality, qi etc, so obviously that work is not just with Xing. In my opinion, the book emphasises the balance between Xing and Ming, by using the same practice on different levels, which changes internally, but still has the same meaning of 回光. The method in the book relies (or emphasises) more on Xing but Ming has to be returned anyway. So the principle is the same as in Wu-Liu Pai books, the accents are different. WLP approach is better for clarity, Golden Flower's explanations may work for people of the "high virtue" who can get the meaning more by their intuition. Also we need to mention that Golden Flower doesn't have such term as Ming Gong. It even uses different terms to speak about Xing and Ming duality. Huimingjing only, but the translations are poor.

Let's discuss this first, because it's not totally correct. Such opinion came from the fact that Richard Wilhelm has translated (in 1928?) a book published in China. In that book, for some reasons, 2 treatises were combined: Huiminjing by Liu Hua Yang (from WLP) and Golden Flower. That's how the book mistakenly became "a part of Wu-Liu Pai canon". Same names can point to different practices in different schools. So it's not very correct to compare, for example, Longmen's xinggong and Wu-Liu Pai's xinggong. Moreover, ming and xing have to be balanced in all practices until they are unite... So even though the principle is the same, classic books are hard to compare. I hope later this year some articles will be published about the differences between methods/schools so it will be not so confusing. If we read the book careful then it's possible to understand what "light" is about and that it cannot be a by-product of xinggong alone.... to make your life harder I can say that WLP has collected various methods of various schools. Some resemble Golden Flower, others - not. But all of them work and share the same principles (described in Golden Flower as well to a certain extent). I understand your wish to find something simple that works, but believe me, real neidan is VERY complex.

yes, we're talking about such things. Even if it is an illusion, it's a signal to change the practice or to look for an advise / help of a teacher.

No, dazuo is mentioned in books as the practice the monks used, but that practice didn't help them to resist yingui. Yingui are related to stealing yuan jing through dreams (usually sexual dreams, but can be different). Actually, not only through dreams, it can happen in a daily activity and can be non-related to sex. For example, it did happen through an aggressive human behaviour (face to face). lucid dreaming are usually just illusions that lead to yuan jing depletion (by means of fantasies / impurities of the person). If they are not illusions, then they can injury the sanbao-treasures (by means of shuimo). If yinshen exits the body (for real, not as it's usually described) then yingui can occupy the _physical_ body. That's really bad...

yes, my hint was about "yin-ghosts". And it's not just "fantasies". Some high level Chan monks, long life celibate (and even virgin), being in dazuo-"meditation" since day one, but have failed because of that... Neidan - is a RISK, not just a pleasant journey. Even in this topic it's obvious how incorrect practices can ruin mental and physical health, but there are even more dangerous things. Now people are weak, lazy and don't practice hard, but in previous time such things have happen very often.

Thanks. At least it's a honest answer. My respect to Jim.

If it is a real small heavenly circle, then you are supposed to experience _much_ more, continuously. If it stopped and nothing has changed considerably in your body, then it's not a real heavenly circle or you haven't managed properly the previous level ("returning ming")... I agree with you, but I spoke more about "Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis". What you describe is the result of loosing ming, but can we feel ming being wasted or restored at the moment it happens? If not then sensitivity doesn't help in the practice.

obviously, there are much more problems nice sum up.

the meaning is still the same, so keep your "lying accusations" same way and same place as you store your "generative fluid". I have no wish to continue our unpleasant discussion. I made my conclusions. If somebody else can buy your arguments and see any flaws in my explanations, then I can answer. But basically everything was already told. If somebody thinks that the phrase has a different meaning in its full version - go ahead, publish the Chinese version and your translation. Then we can discuss.

TY is full of mistakes, so good luck with that: eat, celibate and wait 20 years, when it will be evident that it doesn't work. You're not the first one. Last person who lost his mind after reading TY too much, he claimed that yuan jing is in testicles and to keep it he has to squeeze them... Oh, and don't forget to re-read the part about avoiding farting. It's a true super secret method! :-))) Jing hit your brain? I've asked a person what he is practising. That's it. I have no interest in SFQ, especially after all your postings ("Lao Zi touched him... " lol). There are a few thousand schools like that in the world. Waste of time. So relax and keep us updated about your "discoveries". At least people will know where it has no sense to go.

Neigong was created on top of the initial stages of Neidan. Daoyin is similar to Neigong. Daoyin was used to work with Ming. Neigong was usually used to get abilities for martial arts ("iron shirt" etc). There are some elements in Yu Xian Pai. no real relation, AFAIK Wudang now has very little to offer both in neidan and neigong... Many good neigong and IMA masters live far from there and have no historical connection to Wudang. I know nothing in English. In Chinese you can read classics of Taijiquan (Chen Xin etc), Xinyiquan. But I'm not sure you really need it: if you want Neidan then it has no sense to search for Neidan in martial arts / neigong.

Spring Forest Qigong? What we feel is postheaven. So you feel that postheaven jing moves up your spine to the brain. This is very well known "pseudo-MCO" effect. Shortly speaking, by such exercise you spend the preheaven and damage your brain, instead of replenishing your yuan jing. Just think, do you feel how you're ageing? Nobody feels yuan qi being wasted on a daily basis. So feelings, awareness etc are not good friends here. Sure, yuan jing has to be replenished first, but the question is how. It's impossible to replenish it by having no sex or forcing sexual jing to move to the brain. Moreover, it's dangerous. See http://all-dao.com/heavenly-circle.html for more. And Bluemind has already posted the list of practices, that WON'T lead to Dao. What you with Innersoundqigong try to support here, all that is there. Just FYI. I don't really care where you guys go, but I think it's better to explain things how they are in traditional Daoist schools, where the high level results still exist.

it's the same, but it's hard to grasp... "Body out of the body" is a "pure mind". Just different points of view. Xing = Yin Shen ("primordial original nature") Xing + Ming = Yang Shen ("immortal body") So Dao is about how to activate the Buddha Nature. Also think about daotai vs tathagatagarbha, to see how the same idea has changed through time depending on practical results. Xing is possible to understand from books or by mind. But for Ming students need an enlightened teacher. That's why Ming part has disappeared from many Daoist and Buddhist lineages. and you've already proved that