opendao

really? LOL

There are 2 phases of the process of gathering yuan jing and stopping the leakage. Innersoundqigong mixed them both, and now he is trying to use postheaven to refill preheaven, so let's wish him good luck.

Blind. RIP. Anybody else can buy his arguments or still have doubts about TY book?

if you want to read Quanzhen texts, then to know Buddhist views is very helpful. It works also for Wu-Liu Pai texts, that go even further and explain Buddhist ideas from Daoist point of view. So the material is applicable, goals are similar, but there are TONS of details and subtle differences. All this is worth to research.

yes there is no such possibility dixian still has a body, so the body can be potentially destroyed from the outside (war, earth quack etc) as long as "Heaven and Earth live". That's why it's not really an immortality, and many teachers of the past insisted that people have "to learn celestial immortality only", meaning that dixian is just a sign on the way, not a destination.

just to think about: hexagram 復

ISQ has intensily quoted about "drain". Obviously, "leakage" on the energy level is followed by the semen emission (for men). So TY speaks a lot about the method how to prevent that. The main question is WHEN we have to revert the process of draining. ISQ insists, that it's in the moment of "physical drain", so if man has no sex, then there is no drain. Let's see TY: "When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate is not blocked it will leave by that gate, turn liquid and become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way". Obviously yuan jing ("generative force") and semen ("generative fluid") are not the same even for Zhao Bichen. That's why I told that it's wrong to think that the drain is physical. That's why it's too late to stop the semen flow (as LaoziDao correctly mentioned). So TY doesn't speak about physical drain. But let's return to WHEN. "When the generative force is about to flow out". The previous sentence in the book gives an answer: "when the penis stands during sleep". So the real drain happens when "vitality manifests" (according to TY, in other schools the opinions are different). Really it doesn't matter, do you have sex or not, do you have sexual desires or not. If you don't know the specific method to apply at a specific time, then all this celibacy is in vain: yuan jing is transformed to postheaven jing and will flow away sooner or later. So again the same: book is wrong, book is incomplete, but even this wrong book is not about "celibacy as the main form to stop leakage". Method is different. Alas, it's more complex then just to press by a finger on the root of penis...

True for "alchemical authors", but not for Liu Yiming. I know it sounds like a riddle, but I don't want to speak more. Just a hint. Without destiny no teacher will accept a student... About hurt: 1) teacher doesn't force his/her "true qi" to students. The process of teaching is different. "Heart to heart" transmission is different. 2) the hurt can come ONLY from the student. If he is impure, then his internal organs can be damaged by his own yuan qi, after it was activated by a teacher. That's why in neidan schools people start with cleaning the energy blockages and inner organs (on pre-heaven level, not what is on Mantak's picture). About destiny in general. 復命 is the key. But all people have a lot of possibilities and flexibility in their life, however usually they don't know how to use these possibilities for good. So train analogy is quite far from truth. If the destiny is predetermined then we can do nothing and still get what we're doomed to! But obviously it's not true. We're passengers without a destination, not trains or plains :-)

Yes, you're more confused now then before. Let's see how many other people cannot read. Wrong. Open Huangdineijing and read. Actually, the same thing is described in TY, but you DON'T SEE. Maybe you have difficulties with the word "physical"? TY doesn't speak about physical drain, it repeats usual phrases from other books about Yuan Jing / Qi leakage, which is not physical by definition. no. You have no arguments to say that it's about "physical drain". You have no proofs that by stopping "physical drain" you can "store up" yuan jing. Go back and read CAREFULLY. You're so hilarious. You demolish only your own false views. Can you understand that usual people also have yuan jing? Yuan jing is generated on its own till puberty, then people start to use it and waste it. It's a basis of TCM. If people don't have yuan jing, then they cannot have children. That's why Neidan and even TY book speak evidently about RESTORING yuan jing. And for sure it's the only way for those who have already spent their jing, I don't understand who you argue with here. p.s. Btw, our school's founder was a teacher of Zhao Bichen, the author of TY book. Then Zhao has left Wu-Liu Pai, without getting much. So maybe we know better what he wrote, especially when he just copied-pasted Wu-Liu Pai's books in his Taoist Yoga? p.p.s. "super-secret" school has explained you more then "qigong masters touched by Lao Zi in their dreams" all together. So who really opens secrets? To open a secret, you need to know a secret first... I know Innersoundqigong cannot accept that, but I write not for him.

see no difference between " to see it" and "to get proofs"?

both statements are true. Can you imagine that or it doesn't fit your binary logic?

They are near you but to see it you need a real virtue, not some "golden standard" "as we commonly understand it". For example, Taoist Texts see nothing but greed (even when the teaching is done for free) and constantly throwing shit to the tradition he doesn't know. Why is it so? Obviously because he has no "human virtue". It' a good example how humans twist their moral principles the way they like, just to hide their miserable souls behind the curtain, and achieve their very mundane goals. He speaks about "no desire", but obviously he has desires. It reminds us politicians and lawyers, whose work is to lie. It is so "human", but is it a Virtue? Golden Standard??? The real golden standard is inside. And in the beginning Neidan cleans the heart-xin so to achieve "humanity"-Ren. But even this is very far from modern values: "Heaven and earth have no Ren-Humanity...Sage has no Ren." (DDJ, chapter 5) This phrase is important, it shows clearly that humans cannot understand the Virtue basing on "common sense". The only way to get Virtue is to practice. No Yuan Qi, no Virtue-De. No De, no Dao. So we come back again to the Method. No method, no Virtue.

Good point. So behind all this nice words we can see just one thing: such masters had no method to restore yuan jing, so they tried to reduce the wasting to get at least something for their practice. But it wasn't enough to get to the next level.

Dude, you're wrong. Totally wrong. It's not about celibacy at all. Yuan Qi ("prenatal breath" in the text) is the energy, people live when they have it, people die when it's wasted in full. Yuan Jing ("essential generative force" in the text) is some other kind of energy, that can be generated only at puberty age. Yuan Jing is Pre Heaven (same as Yuan Qi). For you it should mean at least that it's not physical. Semen fluid is Post Heaven Jing, it is created from Yuan Jing and this process has no relation to sex or sexual desires. For women it's different but also happens regularly. People spend Yuan Qi all the time. The process of creating Yuan Jing from Yuan Qi happens EVEN if you celibate. If it is not so, then virgin people can live forever. But they die as all others. Think about it, it's important. Also think about women. I hope you know when they loose their yuan jing, and it happens even if they have no sex. So in TY book it says clearly that people "let it drain away to create offspring" and that it's bad. I agree with that, and that's the usual subject in Neidan literature. But the book doesn't say that you can achieve anything by just having no sex!!! TY suggests its own method (wrong) how to "stop the leakage", but this "drain" is not physical, it's on the energy level. That's why it speaks so much about proper time to do the practice. And speaks nothing about avoiding sexual life. Nocturnal emissions has to be avoided, but again it doesn't mean that celibacy will help you in doing that. Nocturnal emissions are dangerous not only because jing is lost, but also for other reasons (not covered in TY book). I think where you live it's called "EPIC FAIL" And that's what many people told you: you got the wrong book in a totally wrong way.

Don't worry, the lineages are still there, in mainland China. For example, our lineage (Yu Xian Pai, Ma Danyang's branch of Quanzhen Dao) has survived the worst time in a temple hidden in mountains (no roads etc). Lay schools (southern) were not really affected by Mao as well.

when you're inside the tradition, you know the exact signs of progress. External, objective signs. No signs, no achievements. If a person looks old then how we can even think that this person has achieved a certain high level in Neidan? It has no sense. There are some exceptions and a lot of details, but in general this rule can be applied to many self-proclaimed "masters of Dan Dao".

I've already gave a bunch of advices: what to search, why, how and where. Who can read, they can do it. Others will complain about an absence of "spiritual mobility" (awesome term man by the way) and repeat the "all ways go same directions" mantra to convince themselves. Find in TY book something about "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage" first, then we can discuss who really has "strange exclusive interpretations" and who just repeat basic things known in the tradition. so pls follow your logic and don't "violate centuries old human texts"!

what if your "breathlessness" has no importance in Neidan? What if people you like have no any achievements in Neidan? What if you're trying to make conclusions with no understanding what initial results are in Neidan? There are a lot of people who celibate and do meditations of a different kind. But masters? Can you name at least ONE contemporary Neidan master you've ever seen? In this thread we discuss Zhao Bichen: is he a Neidan master? Hint: has he achieved immortality and become Xian? No. Wang Liping? No. And the list of "big names" can be very long. But no, they are not Xian... So maybe alchemy teachers are not public persons and you know nothing about them? Amen, nobody will participate in your "pissing contest" and prove you anything. But your logic is poor and the lack of facts is evident...

right. People are trapped by the idea of physical, so they try to interpreter Neidan the same way. Pineal glands, vagus nerve, hormones... All of them are very external to what Neidan deals with.

yes, but it happens not in the beginning, and it comes naturally. What Innersoundqigong claims is based only on his own wrong interpretation of a wrong book. Basically, in TY there is nothing to support his idea that "Taoist Yoga is very clear that celibacy is the main form to stop leakage".

any activity needs an energy, so without alchemy it's possible only to reduce the wasting. But studying is a process which depends heavily on yuan qi (and jing), so it's hard even to reduce... That's why it's better to study while being young :-) That diagram is not about physical process at all, so it cannot be applied literally.

Early Chan had all methods to work with Ming and to achieve Yang Shen. After 6th patriarch Hui Neng such methods were mostly lost. So the speech is not about any "supremacy" of Daoism over Buddhism, but about the fact that some Daoist schools were able to preserve the complete methods.

"Leakage" is not about sex. It's about stopping yuan jing wasting. And human beings spend yuan jing for EVERYTHING, not just sex. So... the celibacy gives very little, it can reduce the wasting, but it cannot "stop the leakage". Maybe one day such translations and explanations will appear. So far you can start learning Wenyan in your spare time. It will pay off. I've explained a few times that TY is not a book to learn Daoist neidan. It's a mix of concepts Zhao Bichen learnt from various schools, including Buddhist ones. Then all that was somehow translated by Charles Luk. Can it be a reliable source of information? In Neidan there are no visualizations by definition, because they mean a work with postheaven shen. It has no sense for Neidan.

there is no fight. We practice and teach traditional qigong sets and they play an important role for modern people (as we all are) as a preparation for neidan or to maintain healthy life style for those who have no interest in neidan. The speech here is about differences between qigong and neidan, because nowadays there are a lot of schools in China and abroad that claim a possibility to achieve immortality by using modern qigong practices and theories Again, if you want health and well-being, then traditional qigong is a good solution. If you want immortality, Dao and freedom then qigong doesn't work, only neidan is a solution.

neidan is not about healing, so it proves really nothing... same as heart or breath stopping. It shows that somebody knows how to spend the preheaven energy, but it says nothing about person's neidan achievements. So yes, qigong masters do really interesting things sometimes, but do you really know what neidan masters do? If not, then nothing to compare. My point is that it's different and worth to explore. But it doesn't mean I will publish photos and videos of people who don't want to be public at all. It's your life, after all, not mine. I can only provide some hints for those who have a chance to understand. but you still here. Does it mean something? hahaha obvious for me, that there are other teachings that lead to real neidan achievements. And people from such schools exist even on this forum. Also obvious that there a lot who claim to know Neidan but offer nothing real. The only way to distinguish is to understand the theory, find a teacher who satisfies theory requirements, then learn and practice. Only after that it's possible to come and claim anything. My only wish is that people do it based on facts, not on new-age beliefs and fast-food practices. maybe for you it's just about words, but for me the difference is practical. What evidences you have on contrast to say that TY book can lead anybody to immortality? What evidences you need to understand that it's impossible to work with preheaven by means of qigong and books? If you don't feel that "cavity of primal spirit" cannot be something physical, then I also have nothing really to say... It's your wish to belief, good luck with that. I don't know why you need to pull other people to do the same though...