opendao

stories have to be researched IF it is something that resonates inside of you. They can be anything. this is common for qigong to think this way, but has no relation to neidan... All his stories are full of practical mistakes... really nothing to discuss.

Longmen is a branch of Quanzhen Dao with a lot of masters (living today). They are of a different level and teach different things. Some of them are frauds, including some big names. What people don't want to get is the distance between actual teaching and Taoist Yoga book. What exactly did Zhao Bichen learn in Wu-Liu and other schools? What did he get through his own practice? What % of it he put in his book? What and how was translated by Charles Luk (I've shown before that some paragraphs were removed completely)? Do you really want to get all this answers or it's enough to see the result? I understand when people discuss achievements of Huineng or Serafim of Sarov. I understand when people don't believe in yangshen at all because in our time it's hard to witness such things. But to discuss Chunyi's abilities... I see no proofs. If he is so cool in Neidan, why his students here write without knowing even basics of Neidan? Why for them Taoist Yoga book is a superior source of knowledge and they are ready to close eyes to all its mistakes? What's a point to speak about yangshen, if previous levels were not achieved and there are no any signs of it? Just a waste of time, in my opinion. good joke Chunyi said that?

it's a very external, "corporal", postheaven view. For Neidan we need to understand that Xing is Spirit-Shen and "innate nature" associated with the heart-Xin. Ming is Yuan Qi (preheaven!) and associated with Kidneys (not physical, but an organ in TCM).

All your questions can be answered positively and you think in a proper direction, but to get proofs you need to turn off the computer and travel far for a long time. To get back to the topic, what you described as your experience has really nothing in common with the alchemy process, you witnessed a very common phenomena, and it can be defined as "Ming raises on its own towards Xing if Xing is developed enough", but it has no relation to the Xing and Ming merging into One. Alas. So all your theory about Xinggong only cannot be supported by your own experience. Think a bit, the answer is very simple, what "ming raises" really means and why Neidan goes in an opposite direction.

no. Can you read literally without projecting your thoughts on my words? western side, eastern side... the route is one, and it can not be discovered just by blindly trials, even during 1000 reincarnations. That's what I'm talking about, but you prefer to teach others how to wait, tolerate and find calmness in their destinies, predefined by previous wrong deeds. How about "my fate is not in Heaven"?

you got everything right

what is a relation of this to Neidan? (I don't really understand, how it's possible to prove anything related to Neidan by such experience) I've witnessed different changes in others and my own body and mind, which can be explained only by applying the traditional Neidan theories about yuan qi and xiantian. I've seen some high level masters and heard how they explain things. Also I haven't witnessed any single lie made by my teachers. But what is important after all that I haven't seen anyone who got any real changes from books only. This you can explore and prove for yourself based on open sources. You don't need to believe, just check.

No. I meant what I meant. I've never even heard about anybody who could attain Dao as explained in the book by following ' clearly, perfectly explained and easily to understand' instructions from this book... And people, who has practical results, can explain this book precisely and tell, what has to be read, in what order, and what is missed to get same practical results. So I prefer to listen to such people, not to my ego, translators or some internet folks :-) in general you're right, every school adds something to the initial text by commenting it. Translators add a lot. But the value of it depends on the practical results writers achieve by following methods of such schools. So independent researchers, who have no relation to any Daoist methods or schools (I'm about Cleary in this context), what really they can understand and translate, so other people can use practically? I understand what you're talking about, but I see no relation of such talks to reality if we speak about traditional Neidan. If we speak about TY and how people understand its "instructions", then it's the same I wrote in my prev msg to you. I think it's always better to read Chinese texts and not to rely on ANY translations... We've seen it in this thread as well. Is there any people who became xian by studying the SGF book? Did I miss something? If not, then I'm not very interested in such opinions... sure. But who to believe? Everybody writes crazy things, they have LDTs, SHOs, yangshens, they travel between Heaven and Earth, but at the same time they write with a lot of facts that have no support in classic books or in words of people, who has a direct relation to Daoist schools. So again we need to choose, what is true and what is false. We need some proves to choose and start the practice. We cannot spend years to just realize that most of the popular methods lead to nothing but "well-being" in the best scenario. That's where teacher, school, lineage can help. At least it works for many people including myself. If people want to wander independently, that's their choice, but results... Again. In the Chinese tradition there is no one who became xian by just following books. All xian-saints had teachers of different origins. That's important. pure believe without any single fact

太乙金華宗旨 is a good book, and its system works fine for those who get instructions from a teacher. If LDT is really produced, then there is no need to "blast anything down", so I don't know how such a fault can be made... From what I read on TTB and around, usually people don't understand what is "turning light around". Even the word "light" they get wrong. Maybe this way they confuse LDT with some postheaven phenomenons, and can "blast" something "down", make their practice wrong and ruin their life in the end.

sorry, my reply was about biolocation not about bilocation LOL I agree that most of the evidences of bilocation are based on illusions or confusions of some sort made by the observers. I don't think it's possible to really double the physically active body without being Shen Xiang and mastering yangshen to a very high level. Such people are rare, they avoid any public attention, don't need to prove anything or show miracles etc.

In Neidan "cultivate" doesn't mean that you _know_ some qualities by your mind and you're trying to _mimic_ them all the time. It's fake. It works on a very simple psychological level only: if you remember how you have been being bored, next time you can easily mimic the same state. The cultivation in Neidan means you do some practices that lead you to a transformation. Basically, you don't have even know what yangshen is in reality to reach that state practically. So there is no need to mimic something you don't know.

daode no no, it's impossible. With an evil dark heart, the desires won't allow you to master Ming and Xing, as well as to join them together to get Daotai.

can you quote from the book? about physical it's true, about "can't be seen": some people can see or feel yinshen and ghosts (not as physical bodies, but as some "bodies of light" or shadows). It depends again on their sensitivity, which is a result of xing training (or innate talents). Also don't forget about illusions: people see absolutely imaginary things, but believe they are true. That's why Neidan doesn't develop such sensitivity in the beginning of the practice.

their lack of knowledge leads to wrong conclusions. Such things as biolocation can be achieved solely by Xing practices and yinshen.

no

that's interesting to see how different harmful practices and stupid theories affect the mindset and twist the brain of some exalted adepts... Priceless material for those who need such medical stories. I don't know who to ask, but maybe it's a result of SFQ practice? TY can also produce such results though...

about free teaching or "why immortals need money". I've already covered it here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/35945-why-do-buddhists-seem-to-charge-110th-as-much-as-daoists-for-teachings/?p=572863 Some additions: 1) Some people here don't know the tradition and don't understand how the teaching has been done in China. Any teaching, not only Dao. If they do some research, they can possibly understand that the master doesn't need money. It's a student has a true sincere wish to give money to master. And in such case it's a big relief for the student that it so EASY. 2) We live in the society where money is a tool of the energy exchange. There are other aspects, but it's important to understand that money is just a tool on the way. It's hard to imagine, how much we need to change in ourselves to "attain Dao". Think about money from this point of view, as a tool to overcome difficulties. Alas, not all difficulties on the way can we overcome using money. Any big amounts have their limitations. A lot of things in neidan world cannot be sold for all treasures of the world. Masters don't need them :-( But it's stupid to disregard the role of money and the help student can get by using them in a proper way. 3) there are some variants to learn neidan without money involved, but it works good only in very rare cases. In the society it's very difficult. We've tried, so I know.

I can add that the meaning of such metaphor is not just about "cracking pot" (lol, in Canada it sounds funny), but also that it HAS NO SENSE to do such things. No "true seed", no sense to do Small Heavenly Circle. so true I also don't understand all that. In the modern western civilization it's a rule to pay for the knowledge. Even for books you have to pay. Comparing to the universities the amount you can spend for neidan is very low. I think people just don't understand or don't believe that neidan really can change their live much more then a university degree... Maybe it's because they are tired of conmen who give them nothing... I don't want to specify the big names, but I really think it's one of the reasons of such situation.

I don't see any confusion or ignorance in what you're writing. Just don't try to mix everything together. Isolate different systems. Throw out the garbage :-) I think you are on a right way. It's hard to understand Neidan as a whole thing by mapping different qigong experience to neidan terminology. Even different neidan schools have a lot of things that are not the same. I think in the beginning it's more important to understand yourself, and how your real internal goals correspond, resonate with what you're reading about different systems in general. Don't think about methods and exact details - you cannot get them at the moment. Read more about neidan history, biographies of masters, read classic books to get some feeling about the process in general, try to understand the Daoist world-view without getting into much details. I think it's more beneficial then trying to create your own system of knowledge based on the limited information you have. Even for qigong it doesn't work. All these modern uproots (sfq, kunlun, zyq etc), and even for postheaven methods there are a lot of mistakes, practical mistakes. So for qigong it's hard to find a good teacher nowadays as well. For Neidan it has been always a main problem. Btw, when you receive the preheaven practices, it doesn't mean you'll instantly understand their celestial mechanism. You will experience that they work differently then qigong, but that's it. It's a very complex system with a lot of details hard to get. Think about Yijing: who really understands it? So yeah, sorry, there is no short-cut way to Heaven. A lot of time, a lot of efforts. That's a reality.

sexual jing (postheaven jing) is too much for the brain. Love thoughts and open heart are beneficial for the practice. But it's not a result of moving the energy up to the brain, that's the important practical difference.

"quick glance" doesn't work if you want to learn Neidan you mix different things. 1) If you can come and learn it doesn't mean it's documented or it will be possible to practice it by books. Do you get the difference? 2) yes, it's a first _step_, but not the entire first _stage_, which has many steps inside See Wang Mu's book for clarifications if it is the book you're using now. And the methods to replenish Jing was never disclosed the way it's possible to practice. But you'll continue to believe in sitting meditation, "spiritual mobility" and "safety rules", so it has no too much sense to discuss. there is a difference between "work with" and "replenish", but in general you're right again, steps vs stages and read Wang Mu's "Laying the foundations" chapter. "qigong conditioning" is not Neidan, but in our system we teach traditional "qigong" sets in the beginning, and even on the site it's clearly distinguished that it's not neidan. I've also explained yesterday in this thread why it's needed (postheaven). all-dao.com is about WLP, so I doubt there is a word about shengong, which is from YXP. Huge mess in your head? why intelligent people can't just simply ask questions if they are confused? Continue your "provocatively garnering information" (sic) , but it's not something good people do, in my honest opinion. Chao.

You're thinking loud about something you don't know. But it doesn't look as a question. It looks you're already know for sure... Bad sign. Jiu Yang Shen Gong cannot look as a simple qigong. You've never seen it obviously. Both Shengong and Jiu Yang Shen Gong are not exercises to _replenish_ yuan jing. They are part of the preparatory process. Btw, Jiu Yang Shen Gong is not a secret at all and anybody can come and learn it. Shengong and other preparatory exercises are also available freaking easy... I advise you to get more facts first, then make some big conclusions. Or it looks kinda lame, same as Taoist Texts & Co stupid "comments" based on the lack of any neidan knowledge at all, except some books they've read in a very strange way. If you don't know qigong, then some preparatory exercises in Neidan will look as qigong (and it has sense if you know the history, of qigong). But it won't give you anything to understand what the actual replenishing is all about. They don't forget (lol). Old body has to be transformed in a special way. But you simply don't know. Please come back when you get to that point. I can wait. So far I prefer to rely on words of those who have such results, and not just lame chatting about them. About books I will reply later, but again you missed the point of what was wrote before...

I doubt I've ever mentioned anything about flow of energy... The idea is that postheaven has to work properly. It's more about life style. If it is not set properly then the results of neidan preheaven practices will be hard to keep and accumulate. Lust is a part of love, it has its place and meaning, and even value for the practice. It's transformed with the practice, but if somebody tries to stop it using force, it creates energy blockages and harms the spirit. And you're right, celibacy cannot restore yuan jing, can only slow down the depletion. What you quote sounds very bad such practices burn the brain, destroy it... it's like to plug a calculator into 220 volts socket

I can only confirm that and add that the important thing to think about is so called "leakage stop" state. Celibacy is practised in some schools for a short period of time to intensify the training. Celibacy in general is not recommended, it harms. As many other Neidan school, we teach how the spirit-shen can enter the "emptiness that is not empty", but it has no relation to focus or non-focus, as well as to the idea of emptiness in qigong, when people feel nothing ("no body"), see nothing except white light or focus on something that produces no signals.

one good man from our school has already done the research and compared the English Taoist Yoga book and the original Chinese text. A few examples: 1) 第 二 法 诀 玉 鼎 金 炉 2 THE MICROCOSMIC CAULDRON AND STOVE Where the word "microcosmic" was taken from? It's obviously not in the text. 2) same second chapter: 前 对 脐 轮 后 对 肾 ，中 间 有 个 真 金 炉 。 十 字 街 前 安 玉 鼎 ， 神 气 之 宅 呼 吸 根 。 玉 鼎 者 ， 正 在 两 耳 尖 上 之 中 心 方 寸 玉 枕 之 中 心 ， 是 元 神 室 也 。 金 炉 者 ， 正 在 肾 前 脐 后 ， 两 胯 上 之 中 心 ， 此 是 真 金 炉 也 。 此 炉 是 真 气 穴 ， 《 黄 庭 经 》 云 “ 上 有 黄 庭 上 关 元 ， 后 有 幽 阙 前 命 门 ” 是 也 。 此 窍 是 存 神 养 气 之 所 妙 处 ， 将 祖 气 藏 在 窍 内 ， 若 藏 非 藏 ， 若 无 非 无 ， 心 意 不 可 胡 思 乱 想 ， 呼 吸 之 气 随 意 出 入 而 为 正 功 。 玉 鼎 正在 大 脑 中 心 ， 内 藏 一 胞 ， 为 先 天 真 性 所 居 之 处 ， 即 元神 室 也 。 translation in Taoist Yoga book: The precious cauldron (yu ting) is a cavity in the centre of the brain (between and behind the eyes) and is the seat of (essential) nature, that is the original cavity of spirit (yuan shen shih or the ancestral cavity, tsu ch'iao); As you see first 6 sentences were just skipped. You can translate them and see that they are important. And there are more examples like that. That's why I don't recommend TY book and don't share optimism of some people who are trying to teach others based on such sources I can say more about practices or the author's lineage, but I think for normal people it's enough to be careful in choosing the knowledge sources.