opendao

So you've read the Chinese text, compared it with the English book and found no mistakes? Really? My point was that TY _for some people_ is not good at all. It's not an "accusation", it's a hint. Don't worry, it's not for you. I think for you TY is a real gem on the way, and can really help.

there are a few mistakes here. 1) WLP is not the only true teaching. And I don't practice or advocate WLP btw, I learn another school. 2) except imagination which is rare, there is a postheaven qigong SHO, that is very common. But you're right, it's better to be careful. LOL. It was discuss many times, but special for you: "sitting meditation" (dazuo) longer then 10-15 mins on the early stages of practice is harmful. That's what WLP patriarch says. Did he say that all sitting practices are in vain? No, because obviously on a certain stage the practitioner has to sit. Can we use the term meditation for such practices? Not really (see any dictionary about "meditation" etymology and modern meaning). Can we use the term dazuo? Only in some schools to a certain extent. All such details have to be investigated the scientific way you like. Can you imagine for a second that neidan lineages can have absolutely different approach to Virtue-De and that they are not looking for a "spiritual mobility" of any sort? The real teaching is disseminating the same way it has been happening for centuries, but obviously it's not the way you prefer to see. It's very common, the way you think. Find a teacher, learn neidan, then return and tell us if you still insist on your pov. Real Virtue-De and Dao, they are much more complex then our common sense western thoughts based on humanism, tolerance, egalite-fraternite etc. please stick with what you prefer. At least there is a logic in your opinion. But try not to mix publicity, affordability, availability, "spiritual mobility", healing, power and Dao, as the ultimate result of Daoist training. Then probably you will be able to understand who is Wang Liping in the neidan tradition today. And what is the neidan tradition is all about. It's possible to do it even using books.

it's normal for the qigong world, there are hundreds of such "SHO" methods and evidences (in ZYQ, for example). It's up to a seeker to distinguish qigong and neidan SHO. You quoted a WLP article, but everybody reads it differently and understands very differently. So even if somebody has a list of signs, in many cases people just take what is on the surface and easy to grasp. Sure, qigong is easier and more available, but I suggest to think about the words of different teachers from various schools, who insist that neidan and qigong are not the same in methods and results. Maybe they know better and it has sense to explore such things as much as possible? Rhetoric question, I understand, but I always see a tendency to skip such a hard work and to think that Taoist Yoga or Golden Flower reading is enough to practice or even teach others. The reality can be that a person won't have any chance to even start the real neidan practise after such attempts.

If there are true signs, then the teaching is true, obviously. But the proofs cannot be only subjective, there are things that are objective and can be validated not only by the practitioner, but outside as well. Such criteria are part of the method, and most of them are not disclosed in books. Also, there are different things people mistakenly take as SHO. Such things can be just about imagination, but usually they are of postheaven nature, achieved by qigong training based on breathing, visualisation, "meditations of different kind" etc. In this case a teacher has to stop everything and restore the normal functionality first, only then start from scratch. SHO is a quite high achievement in Neidan. If somebody can manage it just by reading a book and a few attempts, then probably something is not right. And before SHO there are other levels, also rich on achievements and miracles. Sometimes young people can run a few circles of a true SHO, but such ability disappears very quickly or is replaced by a postheaven imitation.

Fabrizio Pregadio's translations, for example. Taoist Encyclopaedia. Translations of some Quanzhen texts by Louis Komjathy. Not perfect, but it's a better start, in my opinion, then TY.

It has no big sense. You can see here that people who praise Taoist Yoga book and use it as a manual, they are lost for any new knowledge, any different point of view. They don't care about translations, they don't care about harm, they see only "pineal glands" or "spirits" everywhere and play with terms without any practical understanding. It's the result of their training (well known affects produced by unbalanced qigong techniques). I can say that the book, except mistranslations, even in the original form, has many mistakes, practical mistakes, starting from the beginning. People describe here their experience, speaking a lot about LDT, MCO, niwan and "turning the light around", but basically what they show is just the harm they received from such a home-made pseudo-daoist training... Again, practically speaking, even the beginning methods in "Taoist Yoga" book are harmful, and obviously lead the practitioners in a wrong direction. Nowadays there are better books, better translations of the classics. They don't look so "practical", but they give much better understanding of Neidan as it is. Anyway, without a teacher all that doesn't work, but books can help to find a teacher and understand him or her.

sure. More then that, if there is no xiantian qi in qi xue, then we can point our mind forever without any success. The true mechanism is different then just "pointing the mind". it's interesting, I will try to reply later on that. Right. And I haven't told that as far as I see. Especially knowing the fact I learn and teach Yuxianpai, which is Quanzhen Dao :-) I think some clarification is needed: 1. Nanzong southern school by Zhang Boduan, not Zhenyi. 2. The method in Quanzhen and Nanzong is the same. Same as Zhong-Liu and Wang Chongyang legacy. The difference is only in some details about how to teach, explanations and exact exercises. 3. The method of Neidan works with xiantian san bao, that's why it is opposite to qigong's methods. I've already wrote about subject vs object though. It's quite different from "their method is completely pre birth", right? At least for me it sounds way different. 4. You can start with Liu Yiming, but I really suggest to read something from Wu-Liu Pai's canon. The theme of xiantian vs houtian is central there. I think we have a conclusion that qigong is not neidan Everything else is just a nice discussion. Thanks for it, pls write more, it's always a pleasure to read something wrote out of direct knowledge and experience, not "thoughts inspired by books", as it's popular here.

maybe I put it wrong, but the mind is not involved here at all: the difference is only in what channels are used. The nature of qi (wei qi, zhen qi, yuan qi etc) is also important. it's because in quanzhen usually don't really work (or don't say they work) with any preheaven substances before the heart-xin is crystal clear. Then zhenyi is possible and xuanmen, as you described. In southern method it's possible to start using preheaven qi from day 1 without zhenyi and crystal clear heart-xin. So I summed it up and told that the real difference is not in zhenyi, but in the substances we work with. But the teaching you received is correct for Quanzhen. I understand where it comes from, and if it works for you, then it's enough for the practice. But to get the full meaning of xiantian, we need to think not just about human body, but about the processes in the universe. Every moment the transition between xiantian and houtian is happening. Same in the body. And a child before birth also has postheaven qi. Maybe think about buddhist "form - no form" concept to understand what I mean. There are also other methods to affect / conenct to xiantian except using the mind the way you described. you see, in your classification it is impossible to distinguish qigong and initial neidan methods, as practised even in some Quanzhen schools and southern schools like Wu-Liu. For you they both are postheaven, because of the mind and movements. But as I see it, the main difference is what movements do, what energies they affect, in which direction etc.

Postheaven, houtian, is about different channels and energy patterns then xiantian. So it's hard to to accept the classification you suggest. Also, there are qigong practices that work without using the mind, and the energy flows naturally there as well. But they don't restore yuan jing, because they work with a different energy, different channels and different energy dynamic patterns. The difference between xiantian and houtian is not about mind. It's about qi. (no matter if we speak about northern Quanzhen or any southern school: such concepts are the ancient foundation with roots in Yijing) Neidan starts with preheaven - xiantian. No doubts here :-) If it's postheaven then it's qigong. Maybe it's better to think not about the subject of practice (mind, self etc), but about object (yuan qi vs postheaven qi) If by "excellent meditation" you mean the full set of methods to develop Ming and Xing, then I agree. I haven't met such schools outside of Dao though. Chan has had it before but now... And the term is not really good: in the correct practices nobody meditates on something :-)) Initial concentration and awareness comes naturally through the energy work on specific channels. That's the real panacea hard to find even in China

funny. But doesn't work: spirit-shen has no hormones, and at least half of neidan works solely with yangshen... Hormones are really peripheral even at the beginning: there is a change, but it's like the reflection and there are many other, more important systems of the body, that are changing. ------------------------------------------ ChiDragon, why do you need such definitions? Just to prove for yourself that any qigong can lead to immortality? It's not serious... But ok, let's play such a nice (and really new, of course) game. My words: Neidan is an ancient science about the life force - Qi, how it works inside the human body, outside in the world, and between them. This science is used to practically transform the human body of flesh into an immortal body of light, capable to ascend to the higher realms. It's done through exercises, and this is the only difference between waidan (external alchemy works with minerals) and pair cultivation (sexual intercourse is used instead of exercises). But the method is really just one. Same stages. Same results. Same theory. Everything else is qigong (yangshengong, soft, hard, medical, modern, ancient - any) Did any qigong make anybody an immortal-xian? No, the history knows nothing about it.

To a certain extent: Neidan practices don't look very different from qigong, daoyin or yoga. Don't forget that some traditional qigong sets had their roots in neidan. But what make them different _by results_ is the level of details you need to know (practically). It is similar to external alchemy recipes with a lot of steps, right ingredients, moon phases, wind directions etc. And all that has to be applied individually and very carefully. That's why a knowledgeable teacher is necessary: it's impossible to re-invent all that. You can take zhan zhuang: it's used in qigong, in neigong (martial arts like yiquan) and in neidan. But the results in all 3 will be different. This difference is because of the details: hands position, additional techniques to enter in the exercise and exit it, the correct order of initial movements to set the position, internal processes, collected long time effect and so on. I hope you grasped the idea. When people say that "meditation is enough", they don't really understand the complexity. Neidan is a vast system of knowledge about how the human body and the world around it work together. Even Bodhidharma's legacy is much wider then just "sitting in front of the wall": there are yijingjing / xisuijing sets, there are sayings by first patriarchs. It was obviously a system, where "sitting in front of the wall" was just the last stage. Same as in Dao. right. And such responsibility deals also with the fact that the ming practices give a big excess of energy. Teacher is responsible if the student goes wild and becomes a monster. That's why it takes a while to test a student. It takes a lot of time to clear the heart by various exercises. It's a long and tedious process for both parts. The methods cannot be shared widely because of that. It's like to give a shotgun to a child.

Wang taught a method that had some differences from the ancient methods of Dao, he has added things from Buddhism and Confucianism, to help people at that hard time. Such method is referred as "Northern method". Ma Danyang has learnt that, but he also has learnt Ming methods of the Southern school. That's why what we learn now is beyond the scope of the original Northern method. Also Yu Xian Pai school has acquired some other practices during last centuries, so now the curriculum covers many interesting areas like healing arts or even taijiquan.

Sorry, I've missed this thread somehow. Yes, Yu Xian Pai is considered to be a sub-sect of Quanzhen Dao, but what we learn from the current lineage holder is much beyond the scope of Wang Chongyang's legacy, and the methods we practice are more close to the Southern school then to the Northern method of Quanzhen. The main difference is in Ming methods. Again, no sitting meditation for the entire day as in other Quanzhen's modern uproots.

unconditional freedom. Freedom from yin-yang, freedom from death, freedom from evil, misfortune. Freedom to get a real wisdom, happiness and self-realization. Something like that. In books it's much easier: neidan is to be an immortal. Also, Dao is about De, but it's hard to grasp from books, without personal encounter with realized masters. Comparing to that, qigong of any kind cannot lead to such freedom and immortality. But traditional forms of qigong (baduanjing etc) have been created having neidan in mind, they can give a lot to prepare people to neidan practices. So their goals are not just about health, and they have their own place and role... The only problem is to find traditional forms. It's hard but possible. Usually a lot of doubts, struggling, researches, money, time, travelling... a lot of riddles too... it all depends on a person's fate though.

You said that such things as I'm speaking about (and I spoke about LDT) are "naturally occurring" and "not complicated". It's the same as "alchemical process is natural". Because LDT is a part of alchemical process. Probably you have your own definition for "natural", but again, it's a term from Neidan (ziran) and you are suppose to know it and use accordingly, so not to confuse anyone... Also you wrote it to support your idea that LDT exists in any random being without any practice. So the context was evident. Now you say that body naturally seeks to top off "naturally occurring systems", but before you wrote it in the context of the alchemical process: "the body naturally tops (not seeks, but tops off! - OD) its resources off. myriad things in life deplete those resources. that issue is something to be rectified via practices. xing, ming, and all that. ". So again you're speaking about some natural process that can lead to the alchemical transformation. The body naturally cannot top off ALL "naturally occurring systems" inside (including Ming, it occurred when people are born, so also naturally). That's why in Neidan it's important to distinguish different body systems. Do you really think you show your understanding of such processes and differences? I see no even single word... Joe, there is nothing really to argue. You said what you said. If you wanted to say something else, then you always could clarify, instead of trolling, blasting and insulting. I don't read your mind, I read your messages. If you write 2+2=5, then what I really can imprint? Is it literally? Yes, sure. As in any other science, the words are precise tools to pass the knowledge. If you say "naturally occurring" then your readers think things occur as a tree grows up, ie "naturally". What you really wanted to say by that? You know better, I can only guess, but think sometimes how others read your postings. Have you ever seen any Neidan teacher in your life? I doubt it. Write about something you know, ah? Or don't write anything, it will be also fair.

Nope, he could say it clear and short. Why people die then? If they can "top off" all resources, then they won't die naturally... Even Qigong people cannot replenish resources in full (there are obvious visible signs of it). But such rectification is not something "naturally occurring", that's the point. And it's complicated. There is an often saying that "dragon and tiger are fighting". If they are not opposed, then why they are fighting? I can write more examples, but maybe you can read something except TTB? If nobody wrote it here before, it doesn't automatically mean that it's wrong The opposition is a natural way, btw, so in the practice nobody opposes Xing and Ming (they already are), but merge them.

Thanks! really appreciate your understanding. I don't think subforum can help. It's like Pit section, an attempt to hide really important discussions and save faces for some idiots. And again, what to do with all the commercial sects trying to sell their qigong exercises under Neidan sauce? Forget about them? It's not responsible. Fight with them? That's what I'm doing from time to time, damn, because I see no other solution. No, until everybody can post any stupidity without arguments, TTB will be a hot place (hell? inferno? lol). Such issues can be solved through a moderation, when people with no arguments (classical texts, first of all) or with no ability to discuss in a normal "scientific" way, such people have to be banned. If they don't change their behaviour, they are deleted. Just my observation though, but I know some successful communities that work like this. But there the moderators are initiated Daoists... Another thing that can help is to prohibit any practical instructions. Neidan people don't publish it anyway, but it'll stop all these irresponsible threads as Golden Flower one. People don't really realize what they do with their own fate and how they destroy the future of those who follow their "wise and useful" advises or take their fantastic experiences too serious....

Thx. It's all clear. I just wanted to know what you mean by "daoist methods" because nowadays it's a really broad term... About the lines and partial understanding: in Dao teaching there is a core that most of the schools historically share. The definitions are quite concrete, because it's not something abstract, it is how body/spirit works, and if we're looking for same results, we inevitably come to the same methods. It is not something just in one school, the overall tradition is based on that. That's how people with various background can make parallels. But for this people have to be inside the tradition and know the core texts at least. So the language is not a real obstacle, it's possible to map, but the lack of practical experience is the usual issue. I understand that travelling is not an option for many people, so as you can see I don't promote Wu-Liu Pai or any other school. I do absolutely different things here... Many people from various schools have tried to point to the right direction, but usually people just react as mentally ill. Good example is here http://thetaobums.com/topic/35815-minor-schools-and-inconsistent-methods-from-zhong-l-chuan-dao-ji/ , that excerpt from the text can really save you many years of researches, but did somebody has asked why such and such methods don't work? No, they prefer to bark about "patented schools" and "greedy taoi$t$". It's just a reaction, they don't want to change their 'mindset'. I think you know that Dao schools don't really care about such people... Those who can, they can grasp subtle hints and start their own "quest for truth". I'll be the happiest person if they find ANY real Neidan school and start learning from it. I will get nothing from it (even commissions haha), but the world around will be a bit better. About secrets. Historically we see 2 major trends: not to accept foreigners, not to reveal any exact methods. Last 15 years the situation was changed. So now foreigners can learn, and some really hard to find information slowly spreads into the West. But the main obstacle to make Dao open is people. They are closed and spoiled (or ruined) by commercial new-age schools last 50 years. You can see it clearly on this forum :-\

Haha, no I don't like to be one with anyone. I explained to Daeliun why separation is good, why there is time for Wu and Wen... No sense to repeat it here. Guys, your opinions about "lineages", "secrecy", "closed schools" are funny. I'll keep them as is, maybe in a couple years you will read that and will be surprised how somebody can write something without any knowledge. It was already shared, so some people could already grow. And I never said that "it's better than anyone else's", I told that the method is ONE in various known Neidan schools. Even in those I'm not initiated to and have no any business relation to (I need to claim that for some idiots here). Actually I did it a few messages ago in this thread. Because some things are practically not "shareable". Look at your, Taoist Texts or joe previous messages and you can get why. I don't want to ruin my own practice by such "sharing". It's not even about "secrecy", it's way different, it's about responsibility. maybe after I finish with more "primitive" questions :-\ Maybe it's not needed now. It depends what you compare to. What is really to be "close"? Obviously, we cannot know anything about "close schools" until we're initiated into them. I'm not initiated into any of them (I'm pretty sure about it). That's why I'm talking about open schools (because I see what they open and how). But no, my soul is not crying, I really don't want to save the world and throw everything out just to be famous on TTB :-) Dao is open for those who open to it. "Dao didn't leave people, but people left it". I'm doing that, but people prefer to write, not to read :-) I criticize, because it's boring to read same stupid things about Daoism all the time, especially when you clearly know that in reality it's not like this. The most here think that Daoism is what is discussed on TTB and written in fantasy books and bad translations, but the reality I'm talking about is in China, between hundred schools who are still teaching openly the ancient methods of Neidan nowadays. When people are initiated into them, I have nothing to criticize! Everything is possible in theory. I prefer to speak about real facts. There was no one who could became a master without a teacher. So the method is still needed, method needs a lineage, and the practice is still needed. But any practice in Neidan is not natural, it's against the flow, so again, in the tradition such facts are not exist afaik. But for Joe such things are "not complicated and naturally occurring". Maybe he is a master you refer to? But then he can explain all subtle details why people are ageing and dying, how to change this process, what is Yuan Qi, Yuan Jing, what channels are used to manipulate them and so on (the list is long). It's all related to LDT. He thinks he knows it, but his wordings are so different, so I cannot understand him. Maybe. But it looks more like "the absence of the black cat in a dark room". Honestly, I don't care about such "invisible all-known masters", but I need to spend time to reply on such things to clarify them for other people who are still able to think logically and compare. Such people exist, but they prefer to ask in PM and don't write at TTB. It's sad (for TTB), but I understand them...

That's fine. In many Neidan texts this stage is not described at all :-) And from teaching perspective I agree that it's better not to define anything, except some abstract and high level things (goals etc). But Daoist books were written not to teach, the purpose was to explain the methodology for those who are searching, wake up people who are similarly minded and give them a clear direction how to find practices. Can you shortly say what you mean here as "Daoist methods"?

Do you guys really think that any "energy center" in the lower part of the body is the Lower Dan Tien? The location is important, but except that there are a lot of other things Qigong people don't even usually take into consideration. The main obstacle is that they have no Yuan Qi experience (it's not something somebody can do without knowing exactly how to do it), so they don't realize there is something beyond the usual "energy body" they work with in Qigong, Yoga or many other similar methods. Sort of "the world is flat" model... It's not bad, but limited and have no relation to Neidan, which works primary with Yuan Qi.

no, the real issue is that you use the terminology of Neidan, but understand it very differently. Result of skimming? You know better. Again, about Xing/Ming, where I can read your thoughts? You can name it "tiger and dragon", or "rabbit and eagle", or "body and mind", I don't care, but what is a real practical meaning? LDT is very connected to Ming, so if you say what you say about LDT, then how do you know what Ming is? It's impossible... So yes, it's better to stop arguing with me about Neidan, without having no other arguments then Qigong background you obviously have, and blindly trying to equalize absolutely different methods with absolutely opposite goals.

I've read and discussed Xing/Ming with various people here, where I can find your thoughts about it? About LDT I see no sense to repeat. You believe that DT has "density, color" etc, and all people have it. I cannot support it, because practically it's different in Neidan, and texts are against such view. But for modern Qigong it's ok, and your position is not unique, and I understand how practically you came to your ideas... But you don't know the other side, so how to discuss it with you? It needs at least some foundation in theory, and so far I don't see it... All these themes like Xing/Ming, Post/Pre Heaven, Yuan Qi and senses, Qigong vs Neidan were already discussed, and those who want can do his or her own conclusions. Usually when people have questions, they ask concrete questions Inside Wu-Liu Pai there are school records, so as far as I know this person was accepted, but then left the school very quickly and started to learn in another school. So in Wu-Liu Pai they are not recognized as students, and this lineage has considerable differences in theory and practice. Maybe it's better to ask Alchemist in Wu-Liu thread, probably he can answer with more details.

Zhang Boduan wasn't a monk, so... No, he wasn't. Check your sources.

"The yellow sprouts and white clouds are not hard to seek", just create a small waterwheel first, for that you need to "copulate dragon and tiger". Simple, everybody can easily do that as Horus did and become a Fairy Immortal from Vega star. So naive... Joeblast said about "limited view": I'd rather would intentionally limit myself then go so crazy wide, and be so arrogant about basic things However everybody has a choice. Let's just wait for results. Time goes by even for enlightened born new-age gurus. We see the same long revelations made by various ignoramus outside of the tradition for a hundred years at least, and all such people fade up, loose their insights, and become just "old grey haired farts". Obviously something important is missed, but virtually enlightened taoists don't mention it and don't care. "I wish to leave the secret among humankind, but I have not yet met a single perceptive person." Nothing has changed since that, alas. But Zhang Boduan's school still teach Neidan and this alone fact is a counter balance for all these one-day self made "cultivators". Btw, Zhang Boduan is an author of "lay people has no Dan Tien" phrase, but who cares, right? It's much easier to discuss illusions, experiences and opinions about "something that looks like Dan Tien": - Why do you think it's Dan Tien? - It's below and warm and rumble when I think about it.