opendao

I have no problems with such approach if somebody's else "notions for certain words" can be proven by: 1) lineage holders in well known Daoist schools, who achieved the results we discuss (LDT at least) 2) classical texts of Daoism, in case teachers from #1 confirm the meaning So far I see just opinions with no such arguments, and it's not serious. I can accept it as somebody's experience, but not as something I can use to know more about Neidan. Alchemy teachers tell that "lay people have no Dan Tien". I think it's better to make a research, and understand why they tell like that, instead of accepting everything as "true Romans". To "expand definitions", we need to know definitions first, or it looks arrogant to the tradition being learnt. Also to be clear, I don't discuss other teachings or paradigms, because Dan Tien is a word historically specific to just one paradigm: Daoist Neidan. If other qigong or new-age teachings use it, then such terms we need to research by isolating them inside such new formations, without jumping back and forth between them and Neidan texts. Then it will be sort of correct. And I already wrote about the difference between Neidan and Qigong approach to LDT.

for some people it's enough to know what DT is NOT The discussed experiences are about Ming manifestations in the usual life, it happens for many people and it's important for the further practice, but it is not LDT because LDT is Ming refined at a certain stage. I encourage people to ask their teachers and check classics to get more details what LDT is and what achievements it gives. It's their practice and life after all, not mine. And I "leave it at that", because it's the only way I know. Nobody will come and reveal Neidan for you on TTB. It needs your efforts, and not in the Internet. Btw, in the Golden Flower you discuss in another thread, there are good instructions how to attest the results of different stages.

It's just your belief. Try to find how Dan Tien is really defined in Neidan, what is the result of such achievement, what is a "pill" etc. Maybe then you will change your mind. So far it's just an experience very far from real changes... Don't get me wrong, your experience can happen, but it has no relation to results of Neidan practice. Same with all your other conclusions made so quick: it's your interpretation of Neidan terms based on your experience and modern popular Qigong books. This is a new-age approach, not Neidan. No, it's impossible. Technically. The tradition says that the body itself is the limit, even if a master needs to return. Sure such practice won't be from the start, but the "whole" won't be there, as for any other newborn child. Again, it's technically impossible because of the body. So we return to the same statement made by an ancient alchemist: "Lay people have no dan tien". Because the real Dan Tien is a result of a very specific work of returning Yuan Jing and preparing it for the next stage. Everything else is a Qigong experience of a different kind.

Do you know what is "whole" in Daoism and that there are a lot of practice after that? examples?

You've been working in Qi Gong for 3 years, and had an interesting experience when you were young. Many people have similar experiences, and Neidan teaching has answers why and what happens. It's an important experience, but what you describe is not the Dan Tien as it is defined in Neidan. Such things are related to something related to the Dan Tien, but it's not the Dan Tien yet. What you describe as "aura" and "chakras" are post-heaven things, while Dan Tien is pre-heaven and cannot be seen using extra sensitivity developed by Qigong like methods (post-heaven methods). But thanks for sharing your experience. I skipped all your philosophy, it has no relation to the topic, and has a very weak foundation. I prefer to learn about the Dan Tien from teachers who have such Dan Tien, so your statements about adepts and books look a bit funny. Just curious, if you think "it's already all right here - the kingdom of heaven is at hand - be here now - in a flash it can happen", why do you need to learn Qigong from "Grand Master Monk"?

Why do you think you have or had LDT? What are your criteria, if any? What can be visible in people who don't practice?

In Neidan the Dan Tien is not filled, but created. This is the main difference with Qigong, where practitioners use their attention to gather energy around some points in the lower abdomen (qihai etc). In Neidan, the creation of the Dan Tien is a first stage - "Building the foundation". It's impossible to progress further without it. In Neidan such methods as breathing and attention are not used to create the Dan Tien. Only in Qigong, to create more Houtian energy and "pack" it into the lower part of the body. In Neidan physical breathing is not used. Neidan markers are in books or a teacher can tell them... Shortly speaking, some specific physical changes in the body. Other people can see them as well. In Neidan visualizations and mind are not used. Many people mix Neidan concepts about the Dan Tien and modern Qigong methods of breathing, meditation, attention, stillness etc. Alas the methods are not the same with Neidan, and results are very different too. It's really confusing, but practitioners have to figure it out.

Interesting question... Based on the 巫 character and its etymology I can assume that it's a part of the ancient tradition. The scientists trace 巫 back to Shang dynasty. But according to the tradition itself, the roots of Dao teaching are at least in Huang Di era. When Chinese characters were invented... Another traditional point of view is Wenshi (Yin Xi). it's not about psychology, it's about how to apply principles of government to Neidan (the Longhujing text is about Neidan). Wenwang and wuwang, that's it. They are about the same principle, but it's used in a different context, so the application is different.

I see it in reverse, based on what I've heard: Neidan is a core of "Daoism". Everything else (from qigong to fengshui) was created around that core. However Neidan roots are in the Ancient China's culture (Wen!). That's how Yijing is a part of Dao teaching. Same for wenwu, yinyang, wuxin etc. exactly!

In my opinion, the authors go around, discuss opposites and their unity, but cannot grasp some other important factors... In general they put right things about wenwu and provided some good quotes and examples. I don't really want to discuss their views on "chinese masculinity" though ;-) 火候

You're speaking about texts, not about teaching... All such things like MCO/SHO were existing long before WLP, but in WLP texts _some_ things were described for a first time without "mystical flavour" (more open) and _some_ terms were introduced, but basically they mean the same things as more exotic terms in the ancient texts. Then for sure some parts of this info has spread widely, because other schools haven't disclosed the teaching in such details, and it was hard to find more precise practical advices. And sure we can trace how different modern schools are constantly "stealing" the theory from WLP to cover their lack of knowledge and tradition. That's all clear. But your point in several messages is that WLP is basically wrong in its concepts, it's a "middle" school, and it is "having certain distance" from some unknown "top level" schools. Can you finally elaborate that? I have no wish to argue with you, and I'm open to a critical view, but so far all such things as "many people", "Taoist circles" etc sound very poor and cannot be taken as an argument.

There is no any influence of Wu-Liu Pai on Wang Liping's "longmen" even on the textual level. The sources of their exercises are well known, the texts they rely on have everything they usually mention. There is nothing in common with Wu-Liu Pai. Don't confuse people. It sounds contradictory because the author has no relation to Longmen Pai, so all that is just qigong based fantasies after reading Neidan texts... There is no 'too body-entagled' as a feature of Wu-Liu Pai. I don't know where you take your info about the school, but it's very far from reality. What is "high level" then? And what "Taoist circles" you constantly refer to? modern Hong Kong? Your arguments are really welcomed.

Really good observations about bullying. Two reasons: "lack of arguments" and "excess of emotions". They lead to a supremacy and "rankism" based on the lack of knowledge and "false views". When somebody do such bullying, it's time to reply by Wu, not by Wen. However, when people don't agree based on proofs they have, and they argument their position, then it's not bullying. It's time for Wen, for discussions and understanding, for adjusting or changing our views based on fact that somebody knows more then we know. That's how we can learn. People can usually do only one thing. If they are aggressive by their nature, then they apply Wu when it's time for Wen, and they struggle. If they're are passively flow with the flow and have no power to protect their correct views, then they apply Wen when it's time for Wu, and fail as well.

The nature of words is changing, but sometimes written texts are all people have in their search. You speak about further steps, but I speak about the beginning. ask your teacher, he has to know the answer. Or re-read Golden Flower. Here the words are all we have, so we use words, discuss words and cannot do anything without words in the Internet. There are many words around that are not true and have no relation to any traditional Neidan schools. From the ancient times people from the tradition have been giving another perspective, and support their words by texts as much as possible. This way other people can logically see what to follow and what to avoid. If they prefer emotions and battle, then it's ok, it's their choice. But those who have fate, they have to have a possibility to get out from this circle of doubts and false assumptions. Again, it's just a first step. But this is how the tradition has survived, you can get it from the text in OP by the way. In DDJ Lao Zi battles and criticizes false views and there are many other examples like that. It's a natural process, it has its own balance, and for adepts there is time when it's impossible to stay aside of that process. Yes. But in the practice there is time to enforce polarities to make them evident, and there is time to make them one. Dragon and Tiger, that's all about it :-\ And also don't forget about Wenwu principle, it's a basis... no worries, thank you for your time.

for some ignorant people who cannot even read, qigong and meditation are the only practices they know. They think they practice Dao, but Dao teachers think that they are in illusions. Sure thing, it's easier to troll on forums, then looking for a good teacher.

But teachers discuss Dao, write about Dao, students understand and practice true Dao using specific, very hard defined, methods. And their success is without doubts. Your words contradict with facts, so I prefer facts. Neidan methods are not really described with words. True teaching is done differently. So there is not too much possibilities for students to misunderstand words. Words and principles are learnt before and with other purposes. Master adjusts students to changes, students (even very talented) have no mechanism to do that. It's an illusion to think somebody can adjust to changes in an appropriate way on your own. It would be too easy for these world. You really don't read me... Did I say something about "clinging to written words" while practising? With alive Teacher, why do I need that? The words are needed to change the mind, to find a teacher, to explain the true direction in words to perspective (future) students... It's not about real method yet. But when Dao is in words, these words are exact and precise. Students have to obtain clearness about them first. Or the heart would be dirty, and no teaching could be possible. The method is adaptable, but not by students. This is basically the main secret of alchemy (how to make it adaptable).

All these words about houtian and xiantian are just to show what people don't understand... Repeating words from popular books and forums - does it make any sense? After reading, could you get the difference between Hetu 河圖 and Luoshu 洛書? If you want to speak about Qigong (Yangshengong), then there are good old systems worth to study, learn and practice for the entire life. They can give you a good health, sharp mind, calm heart, longevity and overall well being. You don't need even to read Neidan theories to achieve such goals, especially if you find a teacher. Sure if you live in harmony and change your bad habits, you will have enough money. Prosperity is just another side of your correct development as a human being. No-Self is a state of consciousness. You can get it by "quite sitting" or other simple exercises. But all that has no relation to what is "houtian" in Neidan. We cannot use popular definitions from doubtful sources, because the correct meaning of such terms as houtian, houtian jing, Taiji, Wuji, Yinshen can be easily found in specific Neidan texts. Then an attentive reader can see that it's very far from popular beliefs and "common sense" explanations. Yangshenggong can help initially, just to make your heart a bit more open for Dao teaching. But Dao practice doesn't need anything like Qigong or meditation to be successful even for old and sick people. Houtian is used absolutely different way, so don't be confused by other confused people.

And then there is no Tao :-\ any false method is just a hole (yes, in Chaos) for your treasures to leak out. So I would rather stick to the ancient path, not to a modern wisdom...

Pictures are good, but the text is also important... I also replied to that idea about #36, but I can repeat in more details. Your words: I don't see anything that can support "depends on the practitioner" and "what matters is the sequence of methods and the combination of them" in the text. But I see this: And it's repeating in many variants. So no, there is only one order, and the practices are not those in the list. It doesn't matter if you use them together or not. They are marked as "illusory" in this Neidan text (and in other texts as well). your words: Let's look at the Sitting Meditation section, p175: So it speaks about Chan meditation. Very good. Let's assume that in that section the "sitting meditation" is described with real instructions we can use to start practising. But very quickly we see that such instructions are really in conflict with the part, where "illusory" methods are, and it brings up a lot of questions: 'Sitting for a long period forget what you know' vs 'those who sit for long periods without lying down' When we have to stop sitting? When we have to start? Text speaks nothing about it. 'Lean over to examine a deep water: there is nothing hiding in the clear depths' vs 'those who look inside and visualize' Let's assume it means we don't have to visualize. But how? 'Darken the mind, nurture the qi, preserve the spirit' vs 'those who face the wall and concentrate on subduing the dragon and taming the tiger' If not by concentration then how, because the text insists on concentration: "The mind of the utmost person is stored in the establishing life force orifice." But "those who meditate 守on the navel" are practising an illusory method... And how to find "life force orifice" then, without meditating on the navel? And how to "establish" it by the way? Many things we know about "meditation" from books or other sources has been listed in illusory methods: those who transport the essence and carry the qi, [24] those who gaze at the nose and regulate the breath, [25] those who fix the gaze and examine the body (?), those who face the wall and concentrate on subduing the dragon and taming the tiger those who circulate in emptiness (?) and never return those who strictly observe the precepts, meditation, and wisdom and hope to be liberated So taken all that, we see that different parts of the text follow the same logic, and obviously it doesn't teach methods it describes as "illusory". People see practices everywhere, but don't want to pay attention to the words about illusory methods and words about the fact that no methods were revealed in books. However, if we take a point of view of Neidan teachers, then we won't have such conflicts in the texts, everything will be logical, and, the most important, it will work as described in texts.

You need to be more attentive: Jiuyanshengong practice doesn't restore _yuan_ jing and doesn't return youth as described in scriptures when they speak about the first stage ("building the foundation").

I don't know what you learnt, but even the first preliminary exercises of Yuxianpai are based on Ming, not Xing. They don't restore, but they prepare yuan qi using yuan qi. What is it if not a beginning of Ming gong? Quanzhen schools are very different. Early teaching was different from later. You can read even in English books about it. Xin is important, Xing is important, but if there are Ming methods then it's much more efficient to use them to transform Xin and Xing. There are some details, but yes, it's possible after you get the method from any knowledgeable teacher. Level or nationality doesn't play a big role here.

You are absolutely right. As usual. Lu Dongbin sharpens his sword, Wang Chongyang creates a new social marketing strategy to sell his teaching to Taoist Texts through Facebook. But our hero will continue to troll, showing his respect and understanding of the tradition he has no any relation to...

Thoughts made public are not just thoughts... Btw, if something is against somebody's point of view, it's not called "bashing"... Bashing is "violent physical assault" or "severe criticism", by the way. I don't see that any schools were really bashing in this thread or anywhere else. If you have nothing to say about traditional rules of non-disclosing any info about practices, then you don't have to feel "bashed"...

Welcome back, Antares. I couldn't say that, I said " in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost." Some traditions still have it, some traditions never had it, so how we can even speak about ALL? I never apply terminology from one system to another. Even simple things as Qi or Shen have its own meanings in different Daoist schools. But every term has a definition and description inside the school you want to learn. That's the only way to compare based on textual descriptions. But sure thing, such way has its flaws, and the final decision can be made only by learning the tradition in full from a teacher. About "Ming first". Yes, there are some Taoist schools with Xing only. There are modern schools that cannot even enter to the level of Xing work. So what? There are thousands of schools that lost Neidan method completely... The path of Neidan is really well defined, if you want it in full and understand why it's important, then you can find and learn it. If you are ok with partial methods or side-ways, then it's a good choice too. I'm just against modern mix of everything with everything and loosing the idea of "dual cultivation". Whatever choice you do, it has to be done responsible and with attention.

You are free to post your thoughts and support by the parts you like. If you want to make a throughout analysis of the text, including its philosophy or translation issues, you are more then welcome. If you see any context that don't support what LaoziDao has quoted, then it's much easier to mention that then to write comments a la Taoist Texts without any support. On any normal forum such things have to be prohibited, because it can't lead to any discussion. And this is a rare case I agree with Marblehead: not all texts can be taken in full. Even in Zhuangzi there are parts that are obviously were written later and by other people, such parts contrast a lot and it's not very hard to see them. But so far I don't see such things in Xingming giuzhi, the text has its logic and the quotes by LaoziDao follow that logic. As well as "meditation" and "practical" sections