opendao

In Neidan the result of overcoming the innate duality is not just in changing Self. By duality Neidan means not a duality of "subject and object" or "self and Brahman", but the innate duality inside. It has different names: Yin and Yang, Qi and Shen, Xing and Ming. You can find more about it on this forum. The result of the cultivation and unity of these polarities leads to a transformation of the entire human being. It includes the spirit-Shen, it includes the energy-Qi. They become one. This is Dao. This is called "One", non-duality. The state of "no self" and enlightenment-satori are considered to be just one of the results on this path, when a student refines the spirit-Shen using the energy-Qi, developed on previous stages of the practice. So when people say that all teachings have same concepts, it's true. But the understanding of such concepts varies dramatically between humans. So in Neidan only a teacher, who is Xian (Immortal, Saint) can be a source of knowledge. Then there are no mistakes and no confusions. Another thing worth to mention is that in many teachings nowadays the ancient principle of middle path is lost. In Neidan it's call "dual cultivation of Xing and Ming". Many people know very good the work with Xing (spirit-Shen), it's about different exercises to stop thoughts and achieve "no mind". If we continue, that's where we can experience out-of-the body "astral travelling". That's what is Ghost Immortal. To prevent that, all ancient systems had practices to work with the innate energy of the body, Ming or Yuan Qi. If this energy is restored and refined, then it can be used to add light to the spirit and for the final transformation of the body. The main difference between such "positive" spirit (Yang shen) and Ghost spirit ("Yin Shen") is that only Yang shen can ascend to Heaven, while Yin Shen can only go down to lower worlds and live there for very long time without any possibility to return to a human body again... Please tell us if you know any similar concepts in what you've learnt.

yes, that's exactly what I'm saying: they try to re-invent techniques from books and own "common sense". The result is sad: "Only the blind lead the blind quickly entering the divergent, crooked path" (text above).

Thanks for pointing that, but do you really disagree with "Who knows the aperture of the Mystic Pass of these masters? It is not among the thirty-six thousand schools.”? Or "There is only this one path of the Golden Elixir, only this is a correct path for cultivating one’s conduct. There is no path other than this by which one can achieve become a transcendent, a buddha."? I believe you don't. Strange, but many people believe in what they think about one part of the text (where they think they can read about "meditation techniques" and go practice), but they argue with another part of the same text where "meditation techniques" are clearly named as not the methods of Golden Elixir Path... Maybe such people think they are clever then masters of the past... LaoziDao, thanks for quoting, in my opinion it's a good wrap up for the ideas of Zhong Lu Chuan Dao Ji posted in the beginning of the thread.

FYI, in traditional schools it's prohibited to post such (or any) details about personal practice. And in Longmen too.

Thank you. That's what I know and that's why I don't see so much value in TY. We've compared the texts, and a lot of things were missed or mistranslated. Maybe later we will post something about it, but I think all admirers of TY can do it by themselves, especially before trying to practice something from there.

Have you had a chance to compare the Chinese text and Luk's translation?

No, it's not. But still there are some connections between Egypt and Ancient China... Yes, that's very correct. Yes, this is true, but in 99.99% of the cases, One Mind guides a person to find a teacher. In any tradition. The exceptions are very rare, especially nowadays... In Dao the fact is very simple: we know nobody who became Xian just by practising from books. You can check it by yourself and figure out what conclusion you can do based on that. This is called "humility" in Dao. Good starting point every time we are lost.

And if something goes wrong from such "practices", just call TTB, such responsible people here will advice something to heal you... "What makes a man Hate another man Help me understand" (just same song)

then it's your fate, take GF or other texts and repeat. See you in 2030. "People are people so why should it be You and I should get along so awfully" At least at TTB I got understanding why Neidan masters from China are SO sceptical about teaching foreigners...

No, at that time "I ate everything I saw", so basically it was a mix of my misunderstanding from qigong (zhong yuan for example), yoga (patanjali, kryia etc), hesychasm, castaneda and maybe something else. Breathing, "taming the mind", "no mind", use of imagination and will to work with qi, meditations, out-of-the body, "no action", a lot of pseudo-internal martial arts etc. Usual things. I've tried almost everything on the market. I even had a teacher (with no lineage of course) :-\ So when somebody asks me "why you are so critical", I answer that it's because I know enough what is on the market, how it works and how it is different from Neidan experience. And I really think it's good to save somebody's 10-20 years of life by not repeating my mistakes.

Such attempts all people can do infinite, and I've done it as well. Many times. I've invented my own system and it did even work . I got some "experiences and miracles". I've been arguing with my teacher proving that people can learn Dao from books... Then I received a first alchemy exercise from my teacher, and after that I gave up: the amount of important details just for one exercise was so huge, so I realized that even knowing the exercise, I cannot find all these necessary details in books. Moreover, to teach the same exercise you need another set of instructions. And this I couldn't find in books too. Yes, there are some hints here and there, but not everything and usually it's just a hint for indoor students and teachers. Many such things I could realize only when I was pointed out to them directly by the teacher... So I suggest to do not read books so literally, every word has a sense, and this sense is far from ordinary... Many things are hidden in the language and context. I listen to people with a proven experience in the tradition now, not to myself any more, so I can say for sure that texts are necessary but they have no instructions :-) I wish you to realize the same and exit out the infinite circle.

Can you elaborate that part about GF? Is it your idea or from TY?

the text by WLP also speaks how to accomplish that (in other chapters, same as TY). Also TY is just based on WLP's text, so I really want to understand the difference. Also TY is not a complete and full translation of the Chinese text to English, so I'd like to hear Andrei's thoughts.

reply removed. Reply to Andrei The practice of external alchemy is still alive in China. The successful clinical experience can be found if somebody really needs it and don't want to repeat popular cliché. Herbs are used in TCM and have their place there. In my opinion, he refers to the fact that herbs are not used in external alchemy for the purposes of transformation. Herbs are considered to be not so strong as minerals even in TCM.

Formation? But Neidan teachers tell it has no form...

just to clarify my point. I don't really agree with this statement. Dao didn't apply principles to other teachings. Daoist teachers just pointed out that the core principles of Confucianism and Buddhism are the same as Dao principles. But it is not because teachers wanted that, but because these both teachings had these principles initially. Other teachings without Dao principles were mentioned only in "false methods and minor schools" lists and weren't absorbed. When you speak this way the meaning is clear. Thanks. In my opinion, they don't declare any methods (exercises, practices) at all. They declare methodology. That's what I call "method". The methodology is the same, that's why teachers speak about "same method". Exercises can vary of course (not too much afaik). And in external alchemy the method is the same, but instructions are very different from Neidan :-) But the methodology is described as "the only correct" usually, I don't recall any words about "many different correct methods". I don't see anything that resonates in GF with the classical texts. It's a 100% Neidan text, with some interesting details and wordings, but the overall process is the same. Uff, I don't know based on what Cleary came to such conclusion... "Purification of the mind" as "the most pervasive practical concern" for Zhan Boduan? "emphasized more the use of everything in life as a means of self refinement, with abstract trance a means of finding the "medicines" of unconditioned spirit and energy, which subsequently have to be refined in the "furnace" of everyday life" for Liu Yiming? I think it's something weird and cannot be supported by quotes.

Just a few words about Evgeny Torchinov: my teacher always speaks warm about him. He has done a lot for Daoist and Buddhist studies in Russia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evgeny_Torchinov

Where I compare apples and bananas? Where I compare statuses? Again just words? Re-read this thread from the beginning, maybe my words are too direct for sensitive people, but I didn't compare anything and didn't teach you how to live. I've highlighted that some popular methods don't bring Neidan results according to the text in the tradition. Many people here don't know about it and never heard about it. You've instantly started all this scam about "selling", "spamming", "avoiding the thread", "learn how to sell from Professor", "youngsters", "long Russian night" etc. Your tone was nice? Not insulting? C'man, admit it wasn't. From you I constantly see a lot of accusations and insults, but not too many arguments. I don't really understand your problem: you teach Qigong, you're happy about "well being" and mindfulness. The entire thread is about Neidan. So what bothers you so much? The tone of supremacy? But that's what you've invented from nothing... You're fighting from the beginning with something that exist only in your imagination. You don't know (it's not an insult, just something you've never pay attention because it's far from you) that many self proclaimed Neidan schools insist on doing methods which lead to no results, which is not so bad, or to dangerous results which is very bad and happens very often. They fool people. They destroy fates. You just don't know about it so you don't understand the context why the text was written, against who and against who my words were addressed. I can say even more clear: there are many good Qigong schools. This texts and my words are NOT against them. There are a few schools, and they exist on TTB as well, who have no lineage, who teach Qigong-like exercises and different kind of meditation (often just invented), but who pretend to teach Neidan. You are not between them, as far as I know. So I don't see any reasons for you to fight here and basically support such scammers. I see that your intentions might be nice, but you've started to attack without even clarifying against what you're fighting, so I treated your insulting approach as a support for "Neidan scammers". Maybe I was too much into conversations with them and has reacted too intense, but my excuse is that you provided no arguments for your words. I hope my explanation can clarify the situation and save us some time to discuss more interesting topics. But I really appreciate that you've provided at least some arguments after all...

I don't speak about it too often, but I'm following Yuxian Pai branch of Quanzhen Dao. I was initiated into Wu-Liu Pai as well. I'm not a "spokesperson" and even not an "official sales representative" :-) My words are based on the writings of my teacher and on the lineage texts, but I'm not trying to hide behind the lineage, and if there are any mistakes, they are mine for sure. It's just to explain the source of knowledge and pay credits to people who taught such concepts, because it's a lie to say that it's my work. And the lineage is the last argument, in my opinion, that's why I always insist on using texts to prove ideas, because that's what others can see and check, without being in any lineage. When person has no lineage, his words are just his words, and they can be absolutely incorrect in the context of Dao teaching. When there is a lineage, we can see the source of words, and make some ideas about what results people can get if they take these words seriously. Also we can find explanations about terminology and so on. Your ideas are very different from what I've heard so far in the tradition, that's why I ask you about the lineage. I will reply about the rest later. Thanks for spending time clarifying your posts.

Maybe Russian dudes read DDJ in Chinese and don't jump so quickly to conclusions? There is nothing about "can you love people" in the text... There is no word "people" in the text (there is "guo" - kingdom). And nothing about "imposing your will" too. There is a word "wei" there, means "action"... Next time try another translation, maybe you will have more support for your fantasies. Can you quote where I told "our lineage is better"? I told that absence of any lineage is unacceptable. For you it's the same maybe, but obviously the sense is different. So again you see something prejudiced on your past experience (bad one?) and you have no support for your claims. p.s. "lineaged Bum" LOL Sense of humor that's all I respect in you. Sad you have no vision and laughing on things you don't know.

which ones? I won't bite you, I promise :-)

Let's think about because it's a very common concept. What is harmony for people? Harmony is a flow with a stream without resisting it or force it or experience anything negative from it. What is balance for people? It's a way to make Yin and Yang equal. What flow people can follow naturally? The natural flow is a way to death. People born, grow up, socialize and die. That's all people can do without teaching. Some paths make this human way more comfortable and efficient (in mundane sense). It's good, and Lao Zi also gives advices for kings how to lead their kingdoms. But it obviously has no sense for internal work. The way (Dao!) of people is to die. But Lao Zi says that his way is 'not a common way'. His Great Dao is different. It opposes the natural flow of things, because it goes to immortality. Can it be achieved by balancing the polarities? No. The end result is a pure Yang, it has no Yin. So it's not a balance as people understand it. Can people naturally follow Great Dao? No, they don't feel it and cannot do that without external help. That's why teacher is so important. Only by forcing yourself to follow his/her guidances you can set yourself on the Great Way. Only by great efforts you can reach the state of being effortless (wuwei), when your actions follow the Great Dao. Then your Great Dao won't be a human Dao of "homo erectus", described in "Tao of piglet" books. Damn LOL, cannot write serious any more... Just read carefully what teachers wrote, and anyone with a clear vision will be able to confirm these words. P.S. for Daeluin: I love to see people reactions. I love to see them waked up and ready to think sceptical about "everybody knows" cliché. I love when they don't repeat common words but think scientifically based on researches in texts. I'm not afraid about "karmic" bs from new-age stupid books. Non-quietism and non-conformism are the gates to Great Dao. Tranquillity and tolerant approach are the gates to blindness... It's very easy to see in this thread, and I'm happy we have so nice conversation here. Love, peace, rock'n'roll.

now I want to see proofs that such words can be applied to the teaching of Lu Dongbin or Zhong Lu or WLP or YXP or Longmen or any other schools participated in this thread. You're giving shit, pls do it responsible. I've already told you many times: words without proofs mean nothing. It's just trolling.

For those who can buy such words I say one thing for now: read about Huang Di and carefully read Lao Zi. Find hermetism and quietism there. Is this an example of your quietism then? Guys, you teach what you don't do, so who can take you serious? About young school I already told you: find older if this is a criteria for you.

Again, I don't see anything about "methods" in that phrase (太乙金华宗旨发明), so I don't know why you think Lu wanted to reveal methods, and not just "secrets" as he wrote. 宗旨 can be translated differently, Cleary uses "source message", at http://www.thesecretofthegoldenflower.com/ch1.html it is "secret", but anyway these 2 characters have no relation to methods or practices. If we take it practically, we will see that we have no idea, how to make it work. How to make mind subtle? How to make mind unified? How to develop the energy (very important thing here)? What exactly means "when you sit down" 坐时? What breathing Lu speaks about if he is against any work on the physical body? And many other practical questions just for this part that is exceptionally simple and detailed comparing with other parts of the text. This description is like an article about nuclear reactor at wikipedia: it is correct but can you build something using it? No, because there are a lot of details not written in texts for purpose. So it's just an illusion of the method, not a method somebody can use. I don't want to speak about "traps" again, but... they work :-) The texts are for learning, but it's important what can be learnt from texts and what cannot. And also let's don't forget who these texts were addressed to. Texts and oral teaching cannot be really compared, because their goal was different. None of the text can substitute heart-to-heart teaching. But without texts it's impossible to find and understand the teaching. At least it works for Dao, I'm not sure about "all Chinese traditions".