opendao

I don't want to convince you, I believe it's impossible :-), but "secret of the GF" is not the same as "secret method of the GF".... Yes, a lot of secrets are there (comparing to more recent books), but where is the method? What exactly person has to do to "turn the light around"? So again a lot about results, requirements, what has to be achieved, in which order, why etc, but nothing about any techniques, especially about initial techniques of Ming gong. "Since ancient times, those who realized spiritual immortality have passed on the Tao by word of mouth, from one to another." (Chapter 1)

This is very important to understand, thanks. What is a book by Cleary about it?

No proofs, no probs So maybe if nobody has no proofs against the text about false methods, somebody has some ideas now how to distinguish correct methods from false ones? There are a lot about it in texts... The method ("how") wasn't disclosed and we can discuss the reasons why, but clear instructions about "what" has to be achieved, in "what" order and "what" signs show the correctness: all that can be found in texts by various schools starting with Huang Di and Lao Zi.

But people do big statements based on such "plucks" that have no support even in the English translation by Cleary.

Can you shortly mention what sutra(s) are not introduced properly in Wu Liu book(s) and why? Please continue and say what was missed in WLP syllabus, and what good schools were not covered? Why do you think these schools are "good"? what is their real difference with WLP? And please also mention the source of your knowledge about WLP syllabus, because afaik it wasn't published openly, so I really have no idea how you can prove your "far from the truth" statement.

Other opinions? This string is in Chap 4, which doesn't describe any initial stage. Is the process described in Chap 4 is a part of Xing Gong? No. Then how we can support "one cannot work with Xing if has not work with Xin before" based on the text? I see no way. And In Chap 1 it states what the entire method (one method!) works with. And it's not Xin or Xing. How to satisfy the requirement about heart in 宗旨只要纯心行去? Simply by doing previous stage! I really recommend to find what the first stage is all about, realize that this a stage of Ming Gong (by effects at least) and that there is nothing before it.

It was a question. Can you answer it? You made a lot of statements, please support at least some of them without wiggling around. I have no interest to discuss somebody's emotions, it's a way to nowhere Your whole understanding cannot be based just on your thoughts. It has to have strong proofs in texts AND strong proofs in the teaching passed by your teacher. But your teacher didn't provide any words, so you use your own words, neglecting a possibility that it can lead to the lack of any proofs of your understanding... references? For example, "Tao merges/unites with everything" - where you took that? Do you agree or disagree with Lu's ideas? Can you be sincere and direct? can you stop your violence then? you are defending your position so aggressively but providing no any substance for your claims except your experience. It's not really scientific I would say. So basically all your thoughts are based on your own experience and you cannot find any clear support for your thoughts in Dao texts, but you think that "your lineage is Dao" and that you understand Dao. No problems. Now at least it's clear why you speak this way and promote the equality of anything with everything. I just need to mention that this approach has no real parallels in the tradition, and the texts clearly distinguish what is wrong and right without any references to "different people are different so any method is good". If you disagree, pls provide any clear classical quote to support it. Why do you think that principles you got have any relation to Dao? What do you think your understanding of Dao is correct? Have your teacher heard your opinions and agreed with them? And he didn't ask you why your thoughts are different from Dao concepts as they were described by HIS teachers? Any modern Neidan lineage would go to Lu, this way or another. There are some exceptions, but their world view is also very different from what you write... So how do you know that your own thoughts are correct? No lineage, no problem, but then it's not an opinion that have any weight in the tradition of Dao, if we discuss it in a traditional scientific way...

Where is this from? what WLP book you read to make such interesting conclusions about "birth of Yang" and "likeage stop"?

<.. many other quotes were skipped ...> Just to sum up: you disagree with Lu Dongbin and his statements about false methods? You think that any of the method from the list can lead to Neidan results, depending on some other factors? Then I think it won't be hard to quote some _classical_ books from your lineage to support your disagreement. If you really want to pacify everybody, then please come back to a discussion in a scientific way, with proofs and texts and no emotions "like/dislike". As you've mentioned "absolutism without any foundation" cannot be really accepted, so please don't do yourself what you're against in others. And for even better understanding of your ideas, it could be very beneficial to tell a few words about your lineage and texts your lineage is based around.

This string is a very usual instruction in Neidan, can be found in some other texts (same idea, not the exact text), so I don't really understand what can lead to any doubts here... Sure this exact quote speaks about the necessity to develop yuan qi _before_ yuan shen can find a place to start _its part_ of the work. And there are a lot of instructions in the text that the first stage is about stabilizing Ming. But for this exact process (in chap 4) both parts are needed (Qi and Shen), so the chapter gives some tips how to use Shen. It doesn't mean that it can be named "Xing Gong" yet... In general all that confirms the principle "Ming then Xing", but I doubt it's so easy to find where the text ends Ming part and starts Xing part... There are some direct words about stages but not in this chapter, and even there such distinction is not used as far as I recall.

When the man of highest capacities hears Tao He does his best to put it into practice. When the man of middling capacity hears Tao He is in two minds about it. When the man of low capacity hears Tao He laughs loudly at it. If he did not laugh, it would not be worth the name of Tao. (DDJ 41, translated by Arthur Waley)

This is very usual, and I thought about it a lot in the past... The answer is simple: sincerity. Sincerity is one of the first visible achievements on the Way. It comes from a correct practice, not from mind. It shows up in words, that in modern society people find too much direct, strong, intolerant, offensive, triumphalist, absolute, exaggerated and so on. People react this way, because the words are sincere, they wake up something inside called "conscience". People are different, their heart openness is different, so their reaction to such words varies. When I've been meeting Neidan students from various schools and countries, I always saw the same sincerity in words, actions, thoughts, determination. Even here on TTB, where the communication is limited. Nobody has tried to "change somebody's mind" or "deepen somebody's understanding". But they directly separate right and wrong when they found it helpful for other people who are sincere in their determination to find truth. For teachers and patriarchs, in their texts especially, this level of sincerity is overwhelming. There is nothing there that is right and wrong at the same time. They state clearly what is true and what is false. They directly speak about people's imperfections. They draw a line between. They separate. They don't try to satisfy the masses. They don't come down to their level... Because they know it has no sense. Because it's not Dao. Because they unite absolutely other polarities, and know that true De has no humanity: they know it for sure because they learnt the ancient Dao taught by Lao Zi... Those who can attune to this sincerity, they will find it beneficial, superficial and congenial. Others will continue to see just promoting, recruiting, selling and other things they got used to. And the sincerity cannot satisfies insincere people's taste. They are incompatible on a very deep level. Now you know and I hope it burns some misunderstandings collected in this thread and in general :-\

what is better?

Don't you find yourself here on the position of a "fundamentalist evangelist" trying to sell your world view you're so keen about? Usual British double standard? You've missed a point that Daode center is just a branch of Wu Liu Pai school in China... If you look around at different qigong centers in Europe, you would find that they are pretty young comparing to many hundreds years of schools like WLP or Yuxianpai. If you read WLP texts, you will find same things people from different traditional Neidan schools write here. I see your mood and intentions, but it's just emotions and lack of information, they make you blind. Perhaps, because you don't read Chinese and are not very attentive, you just have nothing to compare his "excellent" books with... "As of November 2011, the Zhengyi Monastery at the Celestial Master’s Mansion " "The Temple of the Celestial Cloud is a 501 © (3) Non-Profit Religious Organization, founded by Senior Abbot, Professor Jerry Alan Johnson in 2005" So you think his 3 yo temple and 9 yo org is real mature and you can blame Daode Center to be 21 yo? are you kidding?

My point is that different schools have shared the same principles and method because they all have one root. Lao Zi is an authority for all of them at least, even if you don't take Huang-Lao xue seriously, as many Western scientists mistakenly do. And in any school there is a Neidan core and "many other things" around. Same for Quanzhen, the core is Neidan, then Wang added what he found appropriate for masses at that time. it's a scientific point of view, not a traditional one... Only Western scientists/sinologists see "philosophical thought" everywhere... Daoxue was practical all the time in Chinese culture. Basically Sima Qian is the end of era when Huang Lao Xue has started and flourished. He is alone source who used this term (Huang-Lao), but he just has collected all historical info about Huang Di and others, who have learnt, taught and practised Dao teaching at that time. But it's a good term for ancient Dao, for ancient practical method of Dao. Do you know any better? All classical books you've mentioned reflect Neidan... I suggested to start with later books (Longmen, Wu Liu, Quanzhen, Zhan Boduan), because it's easier to grasp for modern people, but if you grasp then you will see the same concepts even in many other teachings (not Dao). Yinfujing is also a good example. Yijing if you want to feel the real "ancient lore" Is it so hard to search for specific words in the text? Btw, what DDJ translation in English do you prefer?

If somebody can explain me what this man is trying to say, I would really appreciate that... Seriously. I don't follow his logic, he explains nothing. Just trolling, sarcasm and no any support for any word in different threads... Yes, the Daode center was founded 21 years ago. So what? Does it change anything I say and what can be supported by texts of various schools founded even when UK was occupied by Vikings?

Come to Van bro, you will see it's much cooler here then "traditional well-being" in UK. We love old trolls like you. Anything else to say about topic?

Yes. And when I say "Neidan schools" I don't mean just Quanzhen or any other "particular branch". I hope I've never ever told that Quanzhen or Wu-Liu Pai are the only Neidan school exist, right? So I don't really understand based on what you made such conclusions... Dmitry Artemyev (my teacher) has spent a lot of time to research and prove that ancient Huang-Lao teaching had the same principles and methods as later Neidan schools. That's why Neidan teachers always highlight that there is only one true method, and this method is the same throughout the history of Dao teaching till our days. That's also why we speak about Tradition so often... And about lineages that can be tracing back to that ancient time. So for sure there were a lot of people who have practised Neidan and got extraordinary results. And in ancient times it was possible to meet such people much more often then nowadays...

Plus such practices spends Yang (yuan qi/jing in this context) tremendously. So it moves the practitioner in an opposite direction: instead of collecting and restoring, he/she spends even more then before. Correct, but Xing Gong cannot be a preparatory work, it doesn't have sense (practically) in the beginning. Xin Gong is different though. Yes. There are 2 obstacles here, as I see it: 1) if Yuan Jing is not restored then it's really hard to bring Xing and Ming back together. There is no "point" where to go. 2) if Yuan Jing is not restored then we have no "fuel" to direct Xing to Ming There are no "yang-first methods" outside Neidan schools... Yang in this context means Yuan Jing. All Ming methods in any Neidan school are supposed to accumulate Yuan Jing to a certain extent. False methods cannot do that, for various reasons.

Oh, I didn't recognize you before under your new name. It's so much easier to release negative emotions anonymously, isn't it? No school, no name, nobody knows you, nobody takes you seriously. Sweet. p.s. And stop saying that venerable Lu was a sales rep. He had another good profession.

qigong has no relation to "doing" or "non-doing", only in Neidan they have a meaning.

Let's discuss relations to the "fate" first. There are many layers of understanding here. But to be short let's say that Ming is Yuan Qi, the primordial energy people receive when they are born. People are not equal when they are born, and their lives are very different as well. From the Daoist point of view, it depends on Xing and Ming, their qualities, these are 2 "souls" in any human being and sometimes they pull a person to absolutely opposite directions. Ming is like a battery, if it's "full" then things are "auspicious" and people have a fortune. When Ming is lost, then there is no fortune and people are dying. That's why it's translated as "fate". But Dao teaching is not fatalistic, it clearly states that anybody can change the fate, return Ming. Yes, they point to the same phenomena but with additional details (ming before restoring or after etc). Terminology can be different in various Neidan schools or in different times, and even can be very obscure, but if we study these terms in the context of their authorship (same book / author / school / time ) then we will see same patterns in different schools.

Maybe it's a surprise for you but terminology in any science is very precise and limited. Because if it's broad then we start to see new-ageish approach where every word can mean anything... It's just a chaos. You use a term "purifying mind". It has no sense in Neidan, because mind = Shishen strictly there. So your initial question has no big sense, that's all I said to you... That's why I asked you to return to Chinese terms. Even if we don't understand them fully, it'll give a better result for our understanding then to use vague terms like "mind" or "return to the source". No, I can't read all Mantak's books :-\ It's a torture. For me it's enough to read a few and know his lineage (an absence of any lineage to be precise). Same for XYP, it's enough to know the lineage of your GM and basic concepts. And I would better stay on my "prejudices suppositions" then to follow systems that have no any relation to Neidan nor by the lineage, nor by core concepts.

Sorry, but how you can know anything about "the lore of the ancient"? From Mantak Chia's books?

Thanks, I reposted this quote to another thread, I think it as more sense there then here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/34438-wu-wei-non-doing-meditation-suggested-in-ttc-query/?p=570090