opendao

Do you really believe that between 20 000 Quanzhen monks everybody understands or even practises Neidan? Have you ever been in any temple in China? I really sorry for these monks and I feel bad that they couldn't find a real teacher in Quanzhen What make me feel better is that their number is ridiculously small

I wrote what I see. If your NPO is unprofitable, it doesn't make you different. Business is not only about money, but mostly about what is important for you in your life. After 800 long posts I think XYP is important for you. You invite to initiations in every post (see your signature). So I see nothing I said wrong. Sure, you can think I'm of a very bad manner, and probably it's true, but I don't love to lie or keep silence.

Liu Yiming doesn't claim that xiantian is Yinshen and houtian is Yangshen, so he speaks about absolutely other polarities. Yin and Yang are very different depending the context, I don't see any support here for effilang's ideas. It's correct about Liu Yiming, he speaks about Yangshen on a certain stage, but in effilang's description you see a statement that cannot be supported by Liu Yiming: "fuse of Yin Shen and Yang Shen". And this is important.

There is nothing to discuss, your posts are just to protect your business and mind view. Keep recruiting

It's not about Neidan, but you can try to support your usual ideas by Wang Chongyang's words. It will be a real surprise if you don't mix mind and Xing, body and Ming.

This phrase alone has no sense in Neidan. See Daeluin's reply as well. So the rest of your long speech has not too much sense. My concern is not about experience, it's very usual for qigong what you describe, even what you describe as "FFS guides you". But my concern is about methodology and terms you used in a weird way. Ask FFS to explain it to you that Yin Shen and Yang Shen don't need to be "fused". Guys, you are like drug dealers: "come to us, come to us"...

Do you think this one is good for _preliminary_ Neidan studies? What is your general opinion about this book, school, translation etc?

It's not Neidan. You read about "doing" and "non-doing" but it looks like you missed the point of "doing". In the tradition things cannot be right and wrong at the same time :-)

I meant people don't read and understand classical books, so they don't know the difference. This is a direct answer to many illusions about XYP's terminology and concepts. Don't you get yet that Dao is not a religion? LaoziDao's approach is a traditional one, and numerous teachers of the past explained it in details. Not really. I see a boring strategy to cover the lack of knowledge by avoiding hard questions and by promoting values that are pleasant for the modern society, but are not traditional at all. Daoist schools are very numerous and their approaches can look different for outsiders, but their core is the same. So when you know the core, it's clear who is who. Main concerns about XYP, not only mine, are: 1) using Neidan terminology and pretending to be "esoteric Taoism", but every single word XYP uses is just to cover Qigong methodology. There are a lot of new schools in China who do the same (Falungong for example), but it doesn't mean that is right. It's misleading. 2) FFS is not Yangshen by definition and description, and such things are not used in Neidan at all. They are dangerous and lead to an opposite direction. Read something about 鬼仙 (ghost immortal) to expand your knowledge a bit more. FFS is not an XYP's invention, such things were practised long before. But this fact doesn't make them better. I don't write it to discuss. For me everything is pretty clear. But people are confused, and the story about Effilang highlights it in full And I don't tell that "our school is the best", stop your boring political games. I only tell that there is Dao teaching as a system, and the XYP is not Dao teaching by its core concepts.

The specific Neidan experience leads to a clear understanding of Neidan concepts, that are very similar between different schools (Neidan schools of course). That's what I don't see here at all, and your "words of wisdom" just confirm that.

This is the principal schema of XYP teaching, isn't it? Everything upside down, and modern inventions instead of any traditional knowledge. Change your logo, fellow, this one is a real deal

After unifying, you don't need to hold anything because the unity cannot separate any more. Gong is done :-) Or it is a "false elixir". You need to follow timing before you got any "emptiness". Emptiness is further ("refining Shen into the Void"). If by emptiness you mean something different, then please explain. From the phrase above it looks like you think that Shen=Emptiness. Correct, but this flowing cannot be done by ordinary people, that's why teacher is needed to give instructions about houhou!!! All other methods and skills don't work to get this understanding. So people who are trying to "flow with Dao" or "to do non-doing" - they're just wasting their time. There are a lot of achievements before your Shen can reach the ability to directly see how Xian Tian works and follow that flow "naturally".

Probably you got it wrong. "Flowing with life" can be achieved on a certain stage, same as "wuwei", "wandering free" and other cool things. But that level is quite high, and it needs a lot of "doing" to reach it. You quoted Liu Yiming in another thread about it. No, Fan (reversing) is about Xian Tian. And Xian Tian / Hou Tian is not about our lifespans or time in general. Read about "likeage". What is leaking? How to reverse this process? You wrote before: There is no rush, no insisting. Just flow with the way (things are.) This is "quietude". Maybe you don't understand basics about reversing-Fan? Maybe you don't understand that Dao can be different, and not all Dao are the same? The "flow with the way things are" is not the direction Daoist goes, because things go to the death, and this is a Houtian process. I t's ok if you understand it differently, I just explain it for anybody more fortunate in choosing the way to go :-) Zhuangzi doesn't advises us, he advises his students who achieved a stage when it's possible to "do nothing". But for ordinary people the only way to get truth is to judge and have doubts.

Yes, and it's pretty obvious when you are inside the school. It's not something you can skip or do not mention :-) For outsiders the only criteria is the level of understanding exposed by such Masters, because on Yangshen level they can clearly and directly understand many things (and do many things). But for this you need to do a lot of researches on your own, then you will see who achieved what. When you see something that contradicts the entire tradition, it's a good chance to doubt such schools and methods. Especially, if you really want to achieve Yangshen. The difference between Yangshen and Yinshen is obvious, but people don't dare to read.

Haha, you're right that the Secret of Golden Flower has no relation to energy work, breathing and meditation. But pure awareness is also not a method. As well as "seeing your natural face". These are results. The book is about Xing and Ming, and all this characters about "sitting meditation" and "breathing" have to be explained by a teacher. Some people see a Chinese character for breathing, but they don't understand the context (because it's impossible without initiation), and don't understand what all these "usual" words mean in Neidan. But Xing Gong is not about "meditation", and Ming gong is not about "energy work". And ordinary breathing is not used at all. About the thread. "Every translation is an interpretation". Because there are no translators initiated in any traditional schools and methods, that is why is really hard to recommend any of their books. Again, to get success in Neidan, you need 2 things: 1) practices given by a Teacher 2) books, you have to read them in Chinese and ask for explanations from your Teacher Without it nothing can happen. No shortcuts.

I mention things in your posts that clearly contradict to what was explicitly written in classical books. And, again, the results speak for themselves :-) I understand you. This "quietude" approach is not unique, it's everywhere now. And it has no relation to Neidan and Daoist tradition in general. Keeping "flow with the flow" obviously is not a reverse process. Does XYP understand the difference?

Is it just your thoughts or is it something XYP insists on? Because it's even less traditional then ideas about shen-qi-jing or FFS...

Let's try. So what traditional Neidan school you've been initiated to before converting to XYP?

That's your guess. Except Zhongli-Lu, there are more older systems, let's name them Huang-Lao. And if you make a research, you won't find anything different from what you called "alchemical paradigm". Even when somebody met Immortals, they didn't "nourish their Shen directly" as it is in Xiao Yao Pai, but they gave some methods to practice, and this practice was according to the "alchemical paradigm" and started from replenishing Yuan Jing. If we start to explore alternative approaches, we quickly see that such systems don't lead to the result of Neidan - Yangshen is not made, transformation is not done. So in terms of results, there is only one method, only one paradigm.

correct no, Neidan works only with xiantian Jing shen - qi - jing approach just doesn't work, it's not a traditional approach. Try to find it in Liu Yiming book. Houtian's shen - qi - jing is popular in Qigong, with its mind quietude (meditation), breath work and some "very very secret" methods to work with sexual jing. It has no relation to Neidan at all. Both exists and have its role, but to get Neidan's results, people have to understand and follow the Neidan methodology. And it clearly restricts houtian's possible results and why xiantian's 3 real treasures are important. That's so basic :-) The basic methodology is the same across all Neidan schools with traditional methods, that lead to a real transmutation (Yangshen with all its miracles). it was proved by many realized teachers of the past. Other side schools don't have such results, so they can have any methods in any order. It's just not Neidan, it is some kind of Qigong. And obviously in traditional Neidan, houtian work is not needed to get results. It is used sometimes, as many other things, but the purpose is different. Not true. For the progress in Neidan, two things are equally important: 1) practice 2) theory understanding Just think why there are so many classical books written by Teachers to their students. They wrote not to the crowd, so maybe they understood that without knowledge, real achievements are not possible?

That's why before reading ancient texts (Neiye, DDJ etc) I would suggest to start with later texts of Longmen, Wu Liu and other schools, because they explain Neidan more clear and precise. Ancient texts speak about the same though, but it's hard to grasp it without a proper foundation made by a knowledgeable teacher.

No, Ming cannot be post-Heaven, because then everybody can feel it and manage it using an ordinary sensitivity. Obviously, nobody can do that - people cannot avoid sickness, misfortune and death without a proper internal transformation. Ming and Xing are Pre Heaven treasures, it should be clear. Human mind is post heaven, that's why ordinary people can manage it, but with no constant results. By taming the mind you work with the illness, not with the cause. Neidan works with the cause, that is why it's different in methods and results. And pre heaven doesn't mean it doesn't need to be refined or restored.

Xing + Ming = Dao, what can be more profound? Yuanshen + Yuanqi = Dao, what can be more precise? "Only Qi and Shen, that's it": Teachers of the past wrote about it a lot. In this thread there are a lot of mistakes. Some "teachers" don't realize the difference between Yangshen and Yuanshen.... Others confuse Ming with the body, Xing with the mind. Even what is written about Xin is far from truth, because the approach to clean Xin is different in Neidan...

Life is a bit more complex then banana... The duality is a way of this world, it's a way of destruction, because it causes beings and things to die and vanish. It's a Law, because all things cannot escape it. True Dao goes opposite, not by balancing, but by merging dualities into One. Think about "power" and "weakness": our Shen-spirit is weak by default, our life force Qi is strong by default. This is the real duality in Dao teaching.

The law of duality is a law of destruction. It's not a true Dao. Somebody can become a "master" when he/she overcomes the duality. There are a lot about it in classic books you don't like to read.