opendao

It doesn't matter here who I am. Even I have no relations to Dao at all, it doesn't make your school not fake. What is really important is that your Zhen Dao doesn't exist in China and in the history. There are no traces nor in popular sources, nor in Daoist lineage documents. All arguments that Zhen Dao is Quanzhen Dao have no support. No texts. No people. No history. Nowhere to go, nobody to ask. That's the main difference between fake and traditional: all traditional Chinese schools have people, books, places, evidences, history. They just exist in this damn reality. You can go there and get proves that are much more valuable then words in the Internet. Why all this is important? Remeber about Falun Gong? It started the same way as Zhen Dao, pretending to know all Daoists secrets etc. Fake school that destroyed many people and was the reason to prohibit Qigong and Daoist researches in China. Many schools had to hide their existence and even now it's still an issue in mainland China.

Yes, in Daoist circles. Your problem is that you have no relations to Daoist circles, so you cannot even guess who is Teacher of Single Yang and how to write his name in Chinese. And yes, it's a test. Have you answered any of my simple questions? No. Not even one. Even about your school name. Even about texts. So why do I have to do anything? Your school is self made Qigong, I put my proves in the form of questions but I know for sure that you have no answers to them. Those who want can go and visit and ask all such questions. And get proves and answers. My belonging to any schools can be proved by my Teacher, his Teachers and other students. They are real, can be visited and asked. The reality of Wu-Liu Pai and Yuxianpai is obvious even on textual and Internet level. But Zhen Dao Pai is fake just because we cannot find ANY (yep, zero) traces of this school. Even the school name has no relation to Daoism and just is one of the names of a Christian sect. Vitalii, why do you do it? I don't believe it brings more money then usual Qigong or Yoga classes.

You are very humble. It's a virtue. In my opinion, there is a mistake here: even if you purify Xing and Ming, they won't merge, so it won't be possible to attain a true body and true mind. DCXM is not really applied at this stage, it has to be done before.

Chi Dragon, it's so good that at least you understand that...

Oh, you've finally found Zhen Dao texts in Dao Zang? Show them, it will clarify at least something. And why you haven't translated them yet? about what? about Christian sect Zhen Dao Pai? Nobody heard about Zhen Dao Pai as a Daoist school in Ma Danyang lineage. Same for all other lineages you claim and claimed (Liu Dongbin, for example). Your Chinese is so bad so you can't find it? Then it's called "no fate"... I can only say that for other people it was possible. Can you find at least some texts by the founders? Or it's also impossible? And don't switch the subject, we discuss your school here. Maybe Wu-Liu Pai is hard to find for you as well? Maybe Yuxianpai is not mentioned in many sources? So back to the subject: where Zhen Dao Pai is mentioned as a Daoist school? Right, nowhere. That's is the dead end. P.S. Btw, it's illogical: if you claim a lineage from Ma Danyang and Zhan Boduan, then such school cannot be named as [Quan] Zhen Dao. I think it's clear why. Especially, if all curriculum is mixed out and theories were taken from modern books. P.P.S And last nail in the coffin: can somebody find "Quan Zhen Dao Pai" in _classic_ texts? I mean with Pai at the end, so to prove Vitalii's idea that Zhen Dao Pai is a short version of Quan Zhen Dao Pai. So why not to sell such practices as one more self-made Qigong? It will bring you money and you'll become famous, with your talents, like Mantak Chia, for example. But pretending to be a legit school while you have no relation to Neidan circles... What's a point to fool yourself and others this way, I don't get. I understand it's a fate and in the future more and more people like that will appear, but for me it's really hard to take that it's possible to combine it with "heart-mind cleaning" practices you claim to teach...

You forgot about merging Xing and Ming. "True body" and "true mind" cannot be reached before that. Why you read articles and not classics?

七真道派 just means "7 true dao schools". "True Dao school" is not an abbreviation for Quanzhen here, but just underlines that only these 7 schools are legit (="true") in Quanzhen tradition. And usually the full phrase is something like 全真七子及七真道派. Vitalii, we got that you have no relations to Quanzhen. But why you just don't claim that you mixed Qigong exercises and made a new school? Why all these fantasies, histories and pseudo-scientific proves? A lot of people are doing business without all these. Just be honest. It's a virtue, even in Quanzhen.

There was only one 真道派 in Chinese history, it was a Christianity group: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Lightning So stop fool people. There was no Daoist school Zhen Dao and it's impossible to find any legitimate traces in the list of schools. In that lists, Quanzhen is Quanzhen, nobody knows about Zhen Dao. And in Daozang there are a lot from Quanzhen, but nothing from ZhenDao. What of these 7 schools is YOUR lineage is from? Don't repeat about Ma Danyang, because it's obviously not true (based even on your teaching curriculum that is far far away from Yuxianpai's curriculum). And why you name your school as Zhen Dao if you claim a lineage from Ma Danyang? Invent something else, like maybe 8th hidden Christian branch of Quanzhen. It would be fun at least.

Good luck, you are definitely not the first on this way :-) But the information in this thread is not adequate and complete. Sometimes it's enough to understand what "zen is not".

It depends on person.

from the article you've translated, it's obvious that even the Chinese context doesn't help to understand Quanzhen (or any other Dao school). For sure, the language is a barrier. And Classic Chinese is another barrier. But so many people can read Classic Chinese, but so little can understand Quanzhen. The understanding is not about mind abilities, it needs much more, much deeper resonance with ancient ideas. It's possible to learn, but it's hard and it cannot be done sitting in the Internet. For people of any cultural context.

A perfect way to kill yourself. Quanzhen needs time to understand, and a real teacher to not be confused. People love to promote themselves pretending they know Quanzhen, but the reality is very different... Secret of Golden Flower:

Poor masters of the past, they knew nothing about ATP, but their Jing was much better... I see only physical force in all such theories and on 'supporting' videos. Maybe it's better to learn Taijiquan basics first, like on this video: and only then try to make theories? Btw, in Taiji Classics theories were already made by people who had practical experience and skills.

no, it has some logic. Just read legends how Huangdi learnt Dao. He hasn't invented it. Lao Zi brought it, but also it wasn't an invention. Huainanzi has appeared later, much later then Huangdi and Laozi, so I don't see why you point to Han era? Who?

Nothing. From a traditional point of view, the knowledge that constitutes the core of Dao teaching, hasn't been invented by humans. The scholars love to distinguish things, but in Chinese history we always see a tendency to connect different teachings (different schools of Tao, Yijing, Buddhism, external alchemy etc), take best of them. Because their core is the same. So this core in Dao schools is associated with Huangdi and Lao Zi. That's why Huang-Lao Xue. This is "Classical Dao", in my opinion.

yep, without 勁 it has no big sense to speak about Peng or even Sung... So what is Jing-勁?

If you're "sinking the heart-xin" then it is a preparatory method and can be done very different (standing, sitting, diet, praying etc). But it is something that you can figure out by books if you want. There are a LOT of information. To ignore sitting meditation or not: that's what teachers decide, based on their knowledge. There are strong arguments not to do it. There are some situations when it has some benefits. But all that has no relation to Neidan, that's the most important. It's impossible to use Dazuo as a corner stone of Neidan practice. You can consider it as an auxiliary method if you want, and Wang Chongyang's teaching confirms that (I don't want to quote all his saying about Dazuo). Next. Dazuo is a well defined method. It has nothing with new-age meditation, where people visualize something or use their mind to drag energy through the body. It's just "sitting and forgetting". Nothing more. If we speak about Xing methods, then yes, there are some practices in a sitting position. Do they have anything in common with Dazuo? Not really. Their mechanism is very different and based on Qi. And for sure they have nothing in common with "meditation" of any kind. So let's return to Wang Chongyang. For monks there is a special method, where they clean the heart first. Sometimes it is called Xing gong, but in reality it is Xin gong, because Xing cannot be affected / used at this stage. And we know such Longmen schools that do it this way. Then, there is a stage where they need to connect Xing and Ming. To do that they have to start with Ming first. (or they have nothing to connect to) It's different from Ming gong in Neidan, but it is still work wit Qi (very specific though). So the technology is the same as in all other Neidan schools: preparation - Ming - Xing. Some people prefer to think "Xing first", but, in my opinion, it drives them too much aside from the understanding how Neidan works. The laws are the same if we want to get the same results. And we're limited by the human nature, so the variants are really fit into one way - true way :-) The steps in that Russian article are very sketchy and I don't think it has sense to rely on them too much. You have a general understanding, everything else depends on a teacher you will find.

We discussed Dazuo, the video shows what Dazuo is by the results!

example of Dazuo, obvious stillness, obvious quietude, no thoughts : Is it obvious that there is too much Yin?

You are free to believe in shenxians watching TV or writing on forums :-)

by logic, just by logic, nothing supernatural, don't worry. Wu Wei people are not ordinary people, they don't like to discuss on forums. There is a reason for that, and the reason is the result of Wu Wei.

I did it many times on this forum, my dear friend. Good morning :-) Are you too cool to dare to read the entire thread? You will find the quotes from my lineage and why Dazuo is wrong according to Neidan.

you will know it when you got what wuwei is and what is the result of such practice.

I don't see any "double standards" here. What is described there is a full (but not detailed) way in Quanzhenjiao as thought by Wang Chongyang to some of his students. As I told before Quanzhen has a very specific path and it can be very different from what 7 masters tougth. Quanzhen starts with Xing methods, then tries to jump over to Xin and finishes the practice. So there is no "Xin first", there is "Xing first"! And yes, it's for monks, not to lay people, who cannot make such a jump. And even for monks it takes the entire life, because there is no complete Ming gong. But in Wang Chongyang sayings you can easily find another layer, that describes full Neidan practice. And he taught it to some of his students. Descending of the heart is a very common term. You can do it in Zhang Zhuan, laying down, doing martial arts forms etc. Read what Wang Chongyang told about Dazuo, it's not just about sitting, it's about creating a background for people with a high De, so they can start doing Neidan. I wrote about Xin (heart-mind) methods and their place in the practice. Until it's not Neidan, people understand all risks and have methods to eliminate them then it's ok. It looks like you see no difference between Xing and Xin, that is why you re confused. Number 8 is about melting Xin not Xing. Xing in Russian is Синь

If I understand you correctly, then you are wrong: Neidan practice is a practice that students do. If you refer 'non-practice' as wuwei, then nobody on this forum reached that level yet, so it has no big sense to discuss it. Liu I Ming defined quite accurate when 'non-doing' is possible. But WuWei in Neidan is also a practice! But I agree with you that sitting meditation is unnatural for the human nature. That's why btw it produces quick effects (not results) that people start to discuss on forums and build their sects around such effects. From Neidan perspective it's wrong, it has to be clear for people that it's wrong, that's why masters of the past obviously warned about it.