opendao

Good example. If you explain the etymology of "samovar" ("boil by itself") then readers can understand it much better. If you explain the etymology of 真, then readers can make their own conclusion about Quanzhen title. Why do we need so many words to explain the title of this school? The teaching of Quanzhen is not in the title. It is not even in texts. So the masters of the past, when they wrote books, they didn't try to explain what Quanzhen is or is not. They just put words that resonate with Shen-Spirit. That's it. But you need to be a traditional Chinese so it works this way for you. When we read English translations, our Shen resonates to the understanding of the translator, and usually it's just wrong (you've described in previous post why). That's what is really hard: translate the impact from one language and culture to another. And it would be interesting to read about your understanding of Quanzhen.

真 = truth (noun for true) So Quanzhen is just Perfect (=Complete from the traditional point of view) Truth, nothing about Realization or Complete Perfection, or, even more, Reality.

Thank you to share all that. It's the best anti-meditation post I've ever read :-) You described a modern new-age approach, based on so called "meditation" and "yoga". There are many of them everywhere: Mantak Chia, Zhen Dao Pai, Eva Wong, Wang Liping, various Kundalini Yoga classes and so on. All such methods are YIN. All symptoms I highlighted in your post: they are VERY YIN. You almost killed yourself by such approach! It has nothing in common with Xing Gong practised in Neidan Daoist traditional schools! Because Xing Gong doesn't unbalanced your body's Yin / Yang balance. So don't listen to Yin people who tried to sell their methods :-) They don't understand what happens when YANG arises! Xing Gong is not just a revealing of your Shen. It's a transformation of your Yuan Shen, it's a process when you give a YANG power of your body to the Shen-spirit. For sure, it's very far from "sitting and forgetting", as well as from any use of the imagination to drag the energy through the body. It's stupid, it's just wasting your life force and time, without any hope to get them back! That's what Teacher Of Single Yang describes as: "the sitting gives rise to yin, and yin leads to the death." You found your way to balance Yin and Yang in your life. It's good. Remember Buddha, after he finally ate some food after a long and stupid fasting? What you describe is not Ming Gong, there is no transformation. It's a balance, and good old Qigong systems also do that. Ming Gong starts with restoring Yuan Jing to the full state we have when we're young. Everything else is not Ming Gong, even if some people try to say that they work with Primordial / Pre Heaven energy and so on. They can work in theory, but in 99.9% it means that they just spend it, not restore! No, the practice looks like practice. You cannot restore Jing sleeping in armchair. MCO starts on its own when you restore Yuan Jing. The Ming practices are really hard to find. It has no sense to describe how it "feels like" when you do them. Because the only important thing is the result. If Yuan Jing is restored, it becomes self evident not only for you, but for other people as well. That is why LaoZiDao says about Ren Xian level and about making a long research, to find your teacher, learn the methods and achieve unbelievable results. And Ming, and Xing - they are transcendent, they are not of this world.

evidences were published on this forum by many different people, but our brave moderators deleted everything (almost). If you want evidences, there is PM.

Sorry, it's a mistake because of Russian transcription system, it has to be Rénxiān

So what, you're trying to hide behind his back? I've read all that when he created his "order" many years ago. Now he changed the web-site and removed the name of his teacher. Why? There are some good fiction books about him in Chinese.... He teaches Dazuo as Xing and Daoyin as a Ming method. You can buy it because it follows your ideas, but I don't take it seriously, because of his mistaken ideas and intention to build a "meditation system" for the West. It's not a traditional way to water down the system just for the sake of commodity of ignorant people. Quanzhen is very different for various teachers. But it was made very simple by Wang Chongyang. And Neidan plays there a very special, limited role. Without understanding that, all these translations and wise words are in vain, because people just see what they got used to see: meditation, meditation, meditation... "Avoid sex and alcohol, sit dumb and you will understand Dao". LOL.

Read more Neidan classics, not modern fantasies, maybe then you will understand the difference between 神仙 and 天仙, and why people spend so many years to go from one to another.

So sad for Quanzhen, when scholars (not even researches) try to explain the Quanzhen teaching by quoting another scholar... Definitely Dazuo practice makes mind blind and not sharp. Is it so hard to understand, that Wang Chongyang taught different systems in different time and to different people? Is it so hard to guess that Quanzhen is not a mix of ideas from Ma Danyang, Qiu Chuji and other patriarchs? In books everything is mixed up, I know, but only by practising Dazuo it's possible not to see such obvious facts. So basically you just pointed out that in the West, in spite of so many translated books, Quanzhen is not understood even on a very basic level.

folk pov

There are different levels of immortals, it's covered in details here: http://www.all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html Btw, you can compare it with Buddhism, maybe there is something similar. The purpose and goal of the practice is not immortality, but transforming to Shen Xian, so it's possible to directly know the laws of the Universe and own way there. Next stage, Tian Xian is to transform the physical body to the body of light. Remember the legend about Damo and the shoe left? That's about it.

You're right about depletion and "kundalini syndrome", it gives a feeling that something changes, but in reality people just go backward. Yuan Jing restoration, by definition, returns youth. Do you remember how did you feel yourself at the age of 12-14 yo? Just think about it, watch children, ask them how do they feel the life. Think about their fate. It's a complicated subject, it's a secret of life and death. I can't provide you any examples, people don't want to show off their achievements. It needs big efforts and time to reveal doubts... Yes, Dao method is simple to practise. A few hours per day is enough to do all needed exercises. No celibacy, an you even can drink and eat what you usually eat. I know very little about Yoga, sorry. If you can provide some definitions / texts, than maybe it will be possible to make some parallels.

That's where it's good to think about Xiantian vs Houtian.

I'll try to find again. no, it sounds too scary for Ren Xian people

Yuan Shen is what we get from birth. It is Yin. When we practice, we joing Xing and Ming and it gives Yang to Shen, so it becomes Yangshen. Yinshen is weak. That's what called "ghost". Qi to Shen is correct. But not Shen to Qi They both are Ming. Yuan Jing is a product of Yuan Qi, it generates before 14-16 years old, then we just spend it for our everyday activities.

If you read texts, that maybe you mentioned, that the fact that "methods were not described" is repeated very often. It's not just my humble opinion. My teacher says that. Teacher of my teacher says that. But what is the most important, when I read modern "explanations of methods", I see nothing even close to what works in Neidan (not exact method, but even the principle).

When a good joke has been repeating for 10 years, it becomes a sad fact The result is the most important thing. Pictures are in the Internet, so now it is easy to see masters' achievements. Even Dazuo has very evident traces on the face and body. Ren Xian is self evident. People just don't know what to look for.

maybe in your famous school... Oh, sorry to return to that, but maybe you will finally show us Ma Danyang's curriculum for Building the foundation? Maybe I don't know something... Btw, if it's a part of Xinggong, that is Greater Vehicle by Wang Chongyang, then why he insists on doing Lesser Vehicle first (that is obviously Ming work)?

So what? I don't see any reason to repeat again about preparatory work. Stop the spam. Btw, there are Quanzhen schools with no Ming method at all. Does it prove anything?

Racist... I spoke about situation in China. I have no familiarity with 3600 side methods and 10000 wrong methods. I just follow my teacher, trying to understand Neidan through practice first, and only then find something relevant in Classic Chinese texts. I've done some "usual" methods before, including breathing of different kind, "meditations" and even more scary practices. So what? Does it change anything to you? I don't think so. And I believe that my personality has no effect on you. Because what I write here, is a very very basic level, that you can easily understand and find proves in texts. Neidan is based on logic and critical thinking. You don't have to believe me by word. So do you have any questions about the topic? I haven't had yet a chance to read your DDJ explanation about Ming practices.

This all about Xin, preparatory practice. It's not even a part nor of "Lesser", nor "Greater" methods, defined in details above. If you know text so well then why so obvious things have to be explained? But you can start with Xing and die early, without listening to Wang Chongyang advises ("waste and scatter their Real qi and damage their primal yang. Therefore they have aging, the aging have diseases, and within diseases, they have death."). Good luck in Dazuo! And yes, Wang Chongyang is absolutely correct about "clean heart first". But in many Neidan school you even have no chance to knock the school doors if your heart is not clean of false thoughts and habits. So obviously it's not a part of their curriculum. Same as Chinese language, Teacher won't teach you such things

Antares, even if you publish all materials here from antizhendao.org, he will continue to insist that we lie. Even if you prove that there are no "mind and meditation" in Daoism, he will continue to publish parts that he thinks support his opinion. Even if you told him that his methods are dangerous, and what he tries to prove can lead to health issues for many people, he will continue to teach them and write doubtful ideas he took god-knows-from-where.

One name is on this web-site and, if you speak Chinese, it's very easy to find their status, lineages and so on. Who wanted, did that. Btw, our teachers are available, it means that you can meet them in person. What's about "Chinese Grandmaster Lu Shiyang"? So now again you say I lie, but again no proves. There is nothing to misinterpret, because there is no lineage and no names that can be traced. No real persons that can be met. You started all this scam, by your aggressive behaviour against somebody who couldn't believe in your explanations. Then you started to scam my school and myself. Now you're hiding out, but what to do with all doubtful opinions about Daoism you spread here and there? I've already told you, you're responsible now for all these "mind and meditation in Daoism" ideas.

Ok, Lu Shiyang. Old story directly from Castaneda books. Lu Shiyang came to Russia, to an unknown city, without speaking Russian. And found Vitalii there, who spoke no Chinese, practising in the park. After that, Lu Shiyang disappeared and nobody could meet him anymore. Being in China, we asked about ZhenDao and Lu Shiyang: for some strange reasons, nobody knows him. Nor from Ma Danyang lineage, nor from Zhang Boduan, nor from any other (my teacher met A LOT of masters from various traditions). How come? So the question is still the same: what is the lineage between misty Lu Shiyang and very exact Ma Danyang. Yuxianpai is very small school now, all teachers are really well known, so tell us the truth. And please stop promoting your web-site, because there is nothing related to this question there.

Poor boy. My target is not you, you think too high about yourself. My target is people, who struggle trying to find a salvation in this world of misleading information But let's finish that: you tell us the source of your profound knowledge, name the teachers in your lineage who taught you Ma Danyang and Zhan Boduang schools (that's written on your site now, before you claimed Liu Dongbin lineage!). If they are valid and know about you (for sure, we will ask them directly) I will say this on this forum, it will prove that I'm telling lies. If not, then there are no proves. As always, though.

Nope. But he makes so good mistakes, and it's much easier to illustrate ideas starting with his mistakes. I don't like to lecture, I prefer "bell" analogy. If you hit, it tolls.