opendao

here the prove that Wang Chongyang is not so easy to understand: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32406-building-the-foundation-and-inner-alchemy/page-9#entry495627

I've already told that idea of "Xing before Ming" is wrong. Now let's see what Wang Chongyang, the most important person for all Northern schools, "Teacher-Father", wrote about it: translated by Stephen Eskildsen. As we see, it's evident Ming before Xing approach. Any doubts?

It's impossible. You are a teacher and have a business, and it changes the level of responsibility dramatically. Ordinary people can make mistakes and have their own, sometimes very stupid, opinions. But you cannot. And because very often your opinion contradicts the traditional opinion, you will see critics. Nobody cares about your personality, but when you promote something, you are responsible for that. You want to go against the tradition and insist that Zhang Sanfeng wrote about "mind work and meditation" - it's your choice. I told you that you don't understand what level Zhang Sanfeng describes and why it won't work for you and 99% of the people on this forum (including myself). You don't understand Wang Chungyang. Not because you're not smart, but because you are not initiated. So stop complaining to moderators and shut up others , that's your fate, you made your choice many years ago.

Sure, the concert all the time, from start to finish, until Xing and Ming become one. Yes, that is why it is said that "Xing can be understood by mind". What people don't realize is that Xing practices are different, when there are Ming practices in place. When Ming is restored, then all Xing practices become much easier, because there is a force to rely on.

You can try, at least once. I don't recommend. I see nothing here related to the traditional practice. And erecting penis is very far from restoring Yuan Jing, from real Yang needed for Neidan.

LOL. Your researches are very profound. Can 功 be something else that a work that somebody can done? Fabrizio Pregadio is a good translator and scholar. I don't recall that he is initiated into any Northern Neidan schools though. I explained my teacher's point of view, I believe he knows a little bit better. Also, the main theoretical problem with "Xing first" approach is that it's impossible to finish the practice by Ming work. See jing-qi-shen stages to understand why. If you understand that, then you have to say, that in some Northern schools it's Xing-Ming-Xing, and in other - it's just Xing with no Ming (very often case).

That's right, to nourish Yuan Qi and Jing food or water or oxygen are not needed.

They have the same idea of Ming first, then Xing, because it cannot be done any other way. In northern schools from Wang Chongyang the initial preparatory method is Xin (heart). Da Zuo is a part of this method. But also I need to note that some Quanzhen schools simply haven't received Ming method from Wang Chongyang. To know all that it's very helpful to know the history and be initiated into any of northern schools with Ming method. Btw, Ming Gong is different in different Quanzhen branches, but leads to the same results and based on the same principles.

can you provide any good definition of Kundalini?

if we quote only parts we lilke, we can get any meaning and support any theories. Who can quote Wang Chungyang's saying about "practising during 100 years" and comment it?

Oh, now the same text by Zhang Sanfeng appears under something he has no relation to. I mean Zhang Sanfeng has no relation to "mind work and meditation in Daoism". It is obvious Neidan text of the school of Zhang Sanfeng and it has no methods, but tips for students about Xing work, that is not a "meditation" by definition and there is no mind involved in that process. Key is here. Key is given by the teacher: "It is possible only for those who already have affinity with the Tao and whose faith is undivided." How do you understand these words? Dawei probably you understand that? Anybody else? From http://thetaobums.com/topic/19929-zuowang/: Obviously, scholars have no understanding and initiation into these practices. "Both similar and different" LOL.

That's correct and has a big sense. You asked about doing/non-doing in Wu-Liu. We follow the same idea, so Neidan starts with doing and then continues with non-doing. But both are Neidan and it's impossible to say that "doing" is Qigong. By "qigong" Teacher of Single Yang usually refers any systems that work with Post Heaven Qi, Jing and Shen, doesn't matter if it was before the term "qigong" was widely used or not. Usually old systems have simple names like 5 animals etc.

The practice of Taijiquan was invented by Zhan Sanfeng. The core of this method is Neidan, Inner Alchemy, the result of which is enlightenment. But also such practice can give you very interesting fighting skills, if combined with other Taijiquan trainings.

Again I received no proves

A is a set of B based on C. A = set of B based on C A = C, because there is absolutely nothing in this phrase that can point to something not based on C. Where are methods NOT based on sitting Da Zuo in this phrase? I even checked you Russian web-site, it's the same:

Compare results of currently live adepts then, based on the results mentioned in old books. Sitting on forums or reading books, you won't get that, it's a long and hard process to prove something to yourself, and it has to be done in person, face to face. About transmissions: there are obvious transmissions and "misty" ones. Mist is the first sign that something is wrong. But even clean transmission is not a guarantee that the methods are there.

Here is what Vitalii said: "Set of higher (why?) level methods, which are based on Dazuo". It means that ALL methods of Neidan according to this definition are based on Da Zuo and are done in sitting position motionless and calm. Am I inventing something? First of all, there is no term "meditation" in Neidan. So they such methods are not used at all, just by definition. Second, if by "meditation" you mean Da Zuo, as Vitalii, then yes, I insist that Da Zuo as a method is not used in Neidan, excepting the preparatory phase (but in just very limited number of schools), which is not a part of Neidan. There are some high level sitting practices, where it's written "sit in Da Zuo", but they are not Da Zuo by the method used in such practices. It's a concept, theory concept, nothing more. That's why I named it "result". Even though, such practices are just 30% at the most of the entire process, they are finishing the practice, so again it's not correct to say they are Neidan's main method. Or only method following Vitalii's definition. We will talk about Ming later, it's much harder then Xing and Da Zuo. Ancient saying: "It's possible to understand Xing, but not Ming". No, Ming is not a pure perception. Ming is Yuan Qi. Pure perception is Yuan Shen. I will think how I can elaborate that, because obviously Yuan Qi is another term that is not defined.

Sweet! Very traditional and shows an understanding of the reverse process! That's how it works: process to restore Jing is faster then people can spend it.

If you ask me, there are records in our school about the achievements of every student. And even in the previous century, we know many cases like that. Yes, nobody publishes it in newspapers. But it's more then real. In our school you can meet with such people after you reach some level and reveal your doubts.

The Chinese tradition is not lost and is much better now comparing with the level of Daoism understanding in the West. Who really understands those symbols? Teachers understand them very well, and share their understanding even in modern books. But to understand all that symbols and books related to the practise ("how it feels", and what exact results it gives), you need to be a student of such teachers. In China he is VERY well known. And the entire lineage is well known. Even if we skip this fact, we face another situation: If somebody explains in details how Da Zuo can damage somebody's health, but somebody else, who knows that, continues to teach and promote such method without giving any explanations how it's possible to avoid such problems, how do you name such behaviour? I call it "crime" and "lack of responsibility". Because I've experienced all these problems and know the other side of the practice. Did I write "all"? No. Because for sure there are traditional, non-broken and complete Neidan schools except Wu-Liu Pai. I've even mentioned some of them: Yuxianpai, Southern school of Zhan Boduan, some branches of Longmen etc. pls list the name some alive masters in Neidan tradition that think that "Da Zuo is the main method of Neidan". I agree that Neidan is very screwed now, so I suggest to rely ONLY on something that have real proves of authenticity and completeness. There are no any proves that Neidan methods came from India. Damo's legacy also has some pointers about Chan-meditation and it's place in the practice. But I'm not Buddhist, so I don't care to provide quotes. Tip is given, who wants can find it. So there is nothing to discuss here. I'm not in Yoga tradition, not in Buddhist tradition. But to compare, you need to be inside, it means you have to be a student of a true teacher. So I speak only about Neidan, where nor breathing, nor Da Zuo are used as the main method. Ok, again. Da Zuo is a preparatory method in some schools. If it's doing properly, it helps to quite the heart. That's it. Next you need to move to Ming practices, that cannot be done in stillness. "Wrong method" is to think that Neidan's main method is Da Zuo and practise nothing except Da Zuo, or practise Da Zuo longer then 10-15 minutes (!). Da Zuo is used as a basis, so its role is very very small. In many other schools Da Zuo is not used at all because of its negative Yin effect. You quoted Zhang Sanfeng, but you don't understand what is the specific in his school. So you don't understand, where all this can be used. Even though some sitting practice is described there, it's not Da Zuo how it is thought. I've already wrote about the difference between Da Zuo as a method ("quite sitting") and sitting practices of a higher level, after Ming and Xing are established. After all that take a look at some modern curriculums for beginners: there are Dazuo and Qigong only. You ask a teacher: "what is the difference between Neidan and Qigong?". He tells you: "main method of Neidan is Da zuo". You ask him: "Where is Ming?". He tells you: "Ming is in Da zuo". That what is wrong. Then with some doubts, you ask about lineage. And just silence replies you... After all that, people on forums start to say that Da Zuo is "when we're looking for Yuan Qi inside". But it's not even traditional Da Zuo! It is some modern false and wrong method, invented based on books. And it is wrong not because somebody tells it, but because it's evident when you understand at least the basic theory of Neidan. You're trying to map your experience to something that you've never experienced. It's hard and almost impossible. Tips were given, find a teacher. You know now how. Or you can ignore all that and continue. That's your choice and your responsibility.

It's ok, but I just want to say that in Neidan nobody cares about rebirth. It's possible to change anything during this life.

ChiDragon, you can read such things in any popular Chinese book about Neidan. If you see anything that bothers you, we can discuss, but honestly I am not feeding you, your cup is already full.

Let's continue. In spite of the differences, all _real_ Neidan schools share the same principles and theories. We've already discussed shortly Houtian and Xiantian. Another important thing is about 2 major parts of Neidan work: 1. Ming Gong 2. Xing Gong Ming is "fate" and Yuan Qi. Xing is "nature" and Yuan Shen. Usually a student starts with some preparatory exercises, that resemble Qigong and Dazuo. Still even here usually there is a difference in the mechanism, Neidan schools prefer Xiantian here because it's much effective. Then a person uses secret Ming methods to replenish Yuan Jing and refine it to Yuan Qi. This is the phase of Ming. Next is Xing work, where Yuan Qi is used to power up Shen-Spirit and transform it to immortal Yang Shen. Preventing quotes from Quanzhen teachings, I should say that though northern schools declare "Xing then Ming" approach, in reality their initial phase is Xin (heart) work, that has Da Zuo as one of the method. But even there Da Zuo has many details, not described in books. Obviously, no "meditation as the main method". And it's a big mistake to think that Ming is Body or Ming can be restored in the meditation. MING is NOT A BODY. MING cannot be restored using MEDITATION. MING cannot be restored using physical or Qigong exercises. Attentive readers can already understand why. Stubborn people without De will continue to insist on false methods. Another stupid mistake is to rely on books. First, Ming methods are covered just in theory and it's impossible to guess, how it works. Second, different books assumes different things. For example, some books can discuss Neidan in terms of Waidan (external alchemy), or vice versa, without any tip about the real subject. How can somebody understand it without a teacher? That's why lineages and teachers are so important in Neidan - it's a guarantee that you won't be fooled. I described shortly the correct method of Neidan. Comparing with Qigong, we can see that Qigong cannot be used beyond the preparatory phase of Neidan. Teacher of Single Yang:

I remember about you, awaiting a response from my teacher. For now I can just say that all real schools are very closed, and don't accept foreigners.

quote pls where he said that Da Zuo "is a very important Inner Alchemy practice".