opendao

just curious why you skipped 伸缩三五下?

It looks almost right, but can you elaborate what you mean by "superior virtue"? or just quote if you refer to some book.

the real difference is not about what somebody feels, but about results. The result of the first stage is restored Yuan Jing. What is it exactly and what signs appear - all that can explain a true teacher and then you can compare it with classic texts. Nothing good. The balance between right and wrong information is the same, but the amount of information is crazy higher (cheap publishing, Internet, new-age etc), so to find something is even more difficult then 500-1000 years ago.

Now about Zhang San Feng. I made some comments before, but now a little bit more. It's good that you read different texts, from different masters. But, as a researcher, you need to understand who wrote a text and for whom. Zhang Sanfeng learnt 2 schools. One of them is VERY special. If you explore that, you will understand that his methods are very unique, even though you can see such words as "Da Zuo" and "breathing". I don't want to talk further about it, because it's a very simple test to understand, if somebody knows Neidan or not (it's not about you). Neidan is simple when there is an enlightened teacher, who explains all such traps and subtle details, but Neidan is complicated and confusing if it is learnt just by books.

I rely on my teacher's knowledge. He is a professional sinologist with 30 something years of experience in translating Daoist scriptures. And he always verifies his understanding through his teacher, who is more then just native. Personally I have more issues with English, this language is hard to be used for Neidan. But you are right, classic Chinese language is an obstacle for many people.

Can you refer some Waidan books written that time? And no, DDJ has no relation to Waidan, at least as far as I know it. I wrote about it in other themes. Humans need to restore Yuan Jing to be able to start the transformation. There is one exception from that rule, maybe somebody know it?

exactly. Neidan schools are high in the mist of mountains, but people prefer to think that hills are mountains. Somebody's level is just a mirror of somebody else's level of understanding.... You remember what Zhan Boduan wrote about a toad and its knowledge?

Tradition says that Waidan came later, but who cares, right? When the first waidang treatise was created? when Lao Zi wrote DDJ? Confusion comes from the fact that immortal cannot be born just based on the inherent energetic potential So even the first step in Neidan needs to change that potential and it's impossible to do with Qigong.

We're speaking about the foundation actually. But if you don't know, in the world there are Mountains and there are small hills

about Wang Chungyang. He taught Da Zuo as a preparatory method to quite the heart. Wang Chungyang learnt Neidan methods from Liu Dongbin, then he taught some people (Ma Danyang etc) these methods, but created a new system for monks based on Daoist, Buddhists and other methods. Now in many Northern Schools Da Zuo is learnt as a basic preparatory method, but it has no relation to Neidan, as shown previously. Tradition-fakers (hmm, sorry for my French) don't know about it, so easily extrapolated single preparatory method to the entire Neidan legacy and think that it's a "main principle of a true practice".

again? No humans can feel Yuan Qi, so following this method it's impossible to do that. See theory to understand why.

I asked what is the source of your profound knowledge, so you think you can represent Neidan tradition, claim anything about its methods, and teach others. You confirmed again, that there is nothing except books. Where is your lineage, where is your teacher? Nothing to say, right? So it's better to cry about "wuliupai" (using a small letter to show your attitude lol), that you're victim ans so on. We've heard it many times. But we can confirm ANY our word. I asked why Building the Foundation is so different in your school and other lineages, you said nothing again. There is nothing really to discuss, Master Vitaliy, everything is clear. Write more.

correct sad, but there is no any prove for this declaration... Vitalii, can you shed some light on your lineage (complete, with masters at least on some steps) and where we can finally meet an alive Master of your school (except you, of course)? Wu-Liu Pai people has been asking for that for 10 years! But still there is nothing that can reveal our doubts... Nobody, even you, can find it till a certain (and really high) level. No, Ming practices cannot be found based on that. Just because it's impossible even theoretically. Yinshen has no knowledge about Yuan Qi! Yinshen cannot understand Ming! Is it clear or it's better to explain?

To finish about the differences between Neidan and Qigong, I'd like to cite the Teacher of Single Yang: Link to a full article on our old web-site: http://www.all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html Again: any kind of qigong can’t go beyond the preparatory stage of the elixir way! We discussed why, and I hope somebody understood the difference between Xian Tian, reversal process of Neidan, and Hou Tian, direct process used in Qigong. Next week I will try to gather various thoughts about what is good Qigong, and what is a difference between ancient systems and modern Qigong, invented after 1950. It will also cover some questions to me that I couldn't answered yet.

As we could see before, in REAL, orthodox, non-broken lineages (we mentioned Wu-Liu Pai, Yuxian Pai and Zhan Boduan's school at least) there are no Dazuo as the main method. But, for sure, modern interpreters and inventors will continue their dark business to fool people. Just because there is nothing else they can teach and get money for. Neidan is not Dazuo, and has absolutely other methods to work with Xing (Real Nature) and give the results, described as "purity and calmness". Ignorant readers, who have never practised any true methods, and cannot even understand, how it's possible to "work with Yuan Qi without feeling it" (it's about fake Zhen Dao teaching), how they can understand the miraculous work of Ming methods, that automatically, without any efforts, as a post-effect, give to a student the "purity and calmness"? But I think everybody, who has a fate to learn Neidan, already understood all that and will never be fooled by Taoi$$t businessmen.

In Wu-Liu Pai Buddha is equal to Xian (Immortal). Liu Huayang was a Chan monk, then learnt Neidan from Wu Chongxu and was able to understand old Chan scriptures from practical point of view. He realized that the teachings are the same and lead to a transformation to Immortal and Buddha. That is why the school is named XianFo sometimes. I have no info about that Shakyamuni is "golden immortal". Immortals are different by level though.

You are not following what I said: There is no Ming work in "quite sitting" of any kind. "Quite sitting" is a known and well defined method in Qigong (good for heart), in Chan Buddhism (well defined by 6th patriarch) etc. But there is no Ming there, because physically such exercise cannot change anything in Ming, except the fact that you're exhausting your Jing. So you are trying to invent something and then prove it by texts, that were written about other stages, about other methods, or even were addresses to non-initiated people. What's a point of such hard work? Prove to yourself that by sitting you can achieve Neidan results? You can try it without it. It's your health, it's your fate, take a risk and jump. Just remember about this warning:

It's interesting, I think that in the future the Western science will get into understanding what Qi is, what is Xian Tian Qi and how all that is manifested in the human body. But for Daoism it's not very important, because if you can have a tool that allows you to "see" such subtle things directly, then why you may need a microscope? That's really exciting and that's what Neidan is all about: to understand how the world works on its real level. It's like you can understand how CPU works and how a picture on display is generated after that.

There is a problem here: how to follow the internal process of transformation, if there are no methods to start it? You cannot do it by " stabilization of Xing and Ming", all you can stabilize is body and mind, but it's no the same as Ming and Xing. There is no Ming work in "quite sitting" of any kind, that's where all beautiful theories crash usually...

Awesome and correct. So what's next, you can play with Buaga/Buga and prove that they are about lungs?

Thanks for your fair opinion. But the method is already given, maybe your Dharma eye is not focused.... There is no method without theory, and I pointed out some misunderstandings in the theory. If it harms you because contradicts what you know - sorry about that, but it's not a reason to shut me up.

I've read this Buddhist fantasy... There are a lot of misunderstanding between late Buddhists and late Daoists. Both were wrong usually.

yes, but "prenatal" for what kind of object? You think it's about humans only, but it affects everything in the world. And even for humans, Xian Tian still exists after birth and still works. How come if it's only about lungs and breathing?

The method is "ashing the heart", you translate it differently using modern Chinese. So the phrase is self evident. There are more but I really don't want to publish them now, I want to see how else Neidan can be screwed to contain meditation as "its main method". It is so interesting to see who is who... So we see usual counterarguments: practitioners don't sit dully, they do some internal work. Can you name ANY techniques, that are outside of these methods: 1) stop thoughts completely by will 2) concentrate mind (or awareness) on something or on some activity (qi flow in some channels, for example, or "internal silence", or external point on the wall) 3) visualize something to fill something inside, then concentrate on it 4) repeating some words or some thought It's a question for everyone who practise meditation: do you do anything that is outside of the methods listed above? So shortly, do you use consciousness in your meditation and/or you stop your thoughts completely?

so basically all these long texts has nothing related to 正一道? Nor to Daozang texts of this school? Nor to the tradition of 天師道?