opendao

I don't see here any school vs school approach. There is a theory A and theory B. One is about using Houtian methods at Building the Foundation stage. Theory B is against it. I gave my support to theory B, my opponent made his proves to theory A. Any probs here? Anybody is free to join and tell his/her opinion based on personal understanding, texts knowledge, experience etc.

I'm pointing out some issues with the common, not specific to any particular school, theory of Neidan. And it's more fair, because then such problematic issues can be discussed in a proper context. But I'll think how to make it not so harmful for somebody's ego.

What methods of Daoism, except Neidan, are contained in 筑基? There are none. See below about text quotes. Second time: they are not methods, they are RESULTS. It seems that the only way to get it is to practise. Then it becomes obvious that Zhang Sanfeng couldn't mean what you see in his words... But I'm open to counter arguments if you have any, maybe you can prove that Zhang Sanfeng taught his students how to "breath in, breath out"? "1. ”Building the foundation” [筑基]: - basic Qigong, - basic breathing techniques, - Dao Yin and other methods, which can help to improve the circulation of Qi. - methods for accumulation of usual [Post-Heaven] Qi. " 筑基 - is a widely known initial stage of Neidan, where people work with Yuan Jing and they do it using Xian Tian techniques only. In any known orthodox school. But here we see only Post Heaven under 筑基, it lead us to a wrong conclusion about possible results of Post Heaven methods mentioned. Not really. Third time: there are no methods in classic texts. Only results and some subtle guidelines for indoor students. When somebody tries to prove that 2+2 = 5 and pretend to be a math teacher, then I don't see a necessity of "solid arguments" to just say that "you just don't know", and "there is a huge mistake here". And personally I'm very thankful to people when they say it to me, because it moves me forward. I don't want to repeat my mistakes over and over again, and especially I don't want to mistakenly teach others.

How to "use Post-Heaven breathing"? Why do you think Zhang Sanfeng meant any Qigong-like exercise? How to "Nourish Post-Heaven"? Why do you think Lu Yiming meant any Qigong-like exercise? Pre-Heaven can affect Post-Heaven, and that the right way of Neidan, everything else is Qigong that will NEVER give you the same results and same direction. People interested in Dao are eager to find Pre-Heaven methods, because it is one of the most valuable secrets in this world

Really? Can you prove it by any quote of the classic texts, where 筑基 is a part of non-Neidan process? For sure, all other parts of the process have also be there (Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen etc). It looks like you don't understand the meaning of 基. It's not just something like a house foundation or a practice to prepare somebody to something. It is used from very ancient times to highlight exact changes in the body, and these changes are Ming by their nature. Ok, so you're agree that Dao Yin, Qigong and Tuna are not Neidan, then they are not Ming Gong (by definition). My question was about Ming, but obviously there is nothing in your curriculum that has any similarity to Ming practices. That is why you have a wrong meaning for 筑基... It's not true. You just don't know other methods. There is a huge mistake here. You follow the way of translators who have no experience, no true teacher and no lineage. Because your teacher had to explain you how to read classic texts. Because Wu-Liu Pai has a true transmission of Zhang Sanfeng knowledge and we learn his texts, I can just tell you that in the phrase there is nothing about HOW somebody will "regulate and harmonize the breath"! You need to understand that methods are not revealed in classic texts! In Neidan all such things as inner balance are created using Neidan's methods, which don't use breathing techniques. Your opinion just means that you've never practised any Ming exercises and don't understand how they work. Same problem as before. In the last quote, 存心 ("preserving the heart-mind") is a result of 筑基 ("building the foundation"), but not the practice that can be used. Neidan is a very ancient, but well defined and exact science. The classic texts have been created by supernatural people for their students, not for everybody who wants to start a new sect. That is why there are many levels of protection, there are traps and even some parts are mixed up. Only a true teacher can lead you through all these difficulties! So don't throw out parts you don't understand or if they contradict your previous knowledge. Diligently work, ask and finally you'll be able to make this puzzle The cost of any mistake here is very HIGH!

Sorry, but in Neidan these terms have different meanings.

In "conventional" Neidan practice, usual Houtian methods are not used. Because Xiantian methods affect Houtian much better than usual Qigong. Qigong-like exercises are used in some schools to prepare for Neidan practice but nobody tries to convince people that they are already practicing Neidan (Dao) methods. But even with such exercises there is a very important difference. And nobody uses San Bao theory for Qigong, because Three Treasures are treasures only if they are Xian Tian. If they are Hou Tian, then they are "poisoned" and cannot be used for the practice. And Neidan stages are set explicitly: Jing - Qi - Shen. If you disagree, you're welcome to quote any classic text.

"Building the foundation" is a part of Neidan (=Inner Alchemy). Do you know what is the result of this stage? Do you believe it's possible to achieve Ren Xian level using Daoyin and Qigong? I ask all that because it's a very common mistake to substitute Pre Heaven by Post Heaven, replace Xin by Mind and Ming by Body. Many schools do that, and I've heard it many times even in China, but it's just so wrong. They don't understand the important difference between Pre Heaven and Post Heaven. But even in DDJ it's described explicitly... Now thousands practice Qigong, but who can achieve Ren Xian level, as it is defined in Neidan? Maybe something important is missed? Just to be clear: I have nothing against Qigong, I practice it by myself and I teach others. But the results cannot be the same as in Neidan. So I don't understand why people try to use Neidan terminology to describe Qigong.

Just one small thing: there is no Hou Tian practice in Neidan

Dao and De are used in DDJ in many contexts. So depending on the context, De can be first or last. If De is the root then it is about practice, where we need De to attain Dao (part of reversal process). If Dao is first then it is about natural way how De appears. Just my 2 cents

You mention a very important thing: Ming Gong practices. But I don't see what exactly you understand as Ming Gong. Will you teach any of such practices during this retreat?

There are some books translated to English. You can start with this one: http://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_stages.html There is no lack of information, but now everything is mixed with anything, so it's hard to find the truth. If you can read Chinese I would recommend to start with Wu-Liu Pai compendium. But without a teacher it is still hard to grasp. Neidan is a really complex science

Such ideas are common in modern Qigong that tries to look as Neidan and uses the same terminology. But it has to be clear, that in Neidan (in ANY orthodox school), the transformation to Yangshen is possible ONLY using Xian Tian. This difference is highlighted by many teachers of the past, and I don't see any reasons to doubt what they wrote in classic books. And Three Treasures all have to be Xian Tian as well, and they are explicitly named as Yuan Qi, Yuan Jing and Yuan Shen. There is no Hou Tian practices in Dao, even in the beginning. Using Qigong (=Hou Tian method) people can attain only Gui Xian level (= Yin Shen = ghost). That's the most. And it's not easy, it's not just a fantasy OBE.

Hou Tian and Xian Tian are very important and ancient principles of Dao. But all classic books teach us that the transformation to Yang Shen is possible ONLY through refining 3 pre-Heaven (xiantian) treasures. And yes, the order has to be Jing - Qi - Shen, it's not like Lego bricks Just curious, if in your school people learn directly from Shen Xian Teacher (who knows all such things for sure and directly, just because of his/her status), why the theory is different?

Hi, I'm from Quanzhen school, Ma Yu's branch. Live in Vancouver, Canada. Would love to share some info about traditional Daoism and get new knowledge from similar minded people. Cheers.

The teacher is the best source. Now you know what questions to ask when you meet any masters About books, I cannot recommend anything... The classification I wrote is from Zhong Lü Chuan Dao Ji (鐘呂傳道集/钟吕传道集; Anthology of the Transmission of the Dao from Zhong[li Quan] to Lü [Dongbin]). But you need to make a big work to parallel it to a more known scheme of cultivation: foundation, Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen, Shen to Dao and so on.

All true traditions were created by individuals based on what they learnt from their teachers. After that, the society came to work and made from the practice a social toy called "religion" ...

Consciousness is not an object in Daoist practice (Neidan). It's called 識神, "spirit of knowing". It has to be eliminated / transformed. True Nature is a Xing 性, one of the objects of the practice. Another is Ming 命 - fate or life. Only by the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming a person can attain Dao. Our "limited egoic consciousness" cannot be integrated into the Dao, because by itself our consciousness is an obstacle on the Way.

here is a Chinese text for Huainanzi quote above: 能反其所生，故未有形，謂之真人。 perhaps the logic is correct, because 真 = "true", not "real" in the context. Formless here could mean invisibility, I think, but even invisible person is still a person agree Both definitions are not really fitted into the traditional point of view. You can compare with Huangdi Neijing : 余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，旡有終時，此其道生。 (sorry, don't have English text, but it's from the first chapter). Is it about celibacy? Diet? Do you know any modern Qigong that allows to get the longevity of Heaven and Earth?

This is a good question, because goals can tell something interesting about the teaching. I would say Daoism speaks about different stages of the practice. The highest goal is Tian Xian (Heaven Immortal), that is usually described as unity with Dao and Emptiness. Nothing stays on Earth (see the story about Bodhidharma's shoe). The absolute knowledge is achieved at the previous stage - Shen Xian (Spirit Immortal). The fulfillment of the human life can be achieved even on the Earth Immortal stage, but the meaning - on Shen Xian only. If we define Tradition as something that is passed from an eternal source, then yes, Daoism can share this idea and that is why lineages are so important in Daoism. But even Genon's philosophy has many other ideas, so it's hard to say is it fully compatible or not. You need to know completely both ways to do such work