opendao

You ask right questions. I'm writing based on the interpretation of my teacher, who is an indoor student in Wu-Liu Pai school. If you know the history of the school, then it's clear that this school preserves the knowledge from many different branches, including Quanzhen (Longmen), school of Zhan Sanfeng and even from Chan Buddhism. The school is very well known in China, the patriarch is alive and came to Russia in 2008 so it was possible to reveal any doubts. Next, I'm writing also based on my own experience and interpretation, so for sure I can make mistakes. And I would really admire if somebody can point them, but it has to be based on the tradition and not on subjective interpretation, that has nothing behind it (no teacher, no school, no lineage, no knowledge).

no, not at all I've done it in another thread: Qigong works with Post-Heaven Jing, Qi and Shen. Qigong methods are well known: standing and sitting meditation, dynamic exercises, Dao Yin, various work with imagination.

Universal for who? For Chinese tradition there is Yijing, where these terms are defined without any relation to breathing.

So what is a true meditation then, if you define it as "suggesting sitting in a motionless calm and silence". That is exactly what is considered as "dully sitting" by Zhang Boduan in his books (not only quote I made). You mix different practices: 1) 打坐 as a method to calm down the heart. It exists, but even you don't think it's a part of Neidan. In Quanzhen this method is used widely, because the school had (and have) too many students. It's a good method to change the temper. But there are a lot of problems with that. Qui Chuji: 2) sitting practices of the higher stages (years against the wall etc). They have nothing in common with Da zuo as well, they have their own names etc. But as you see Qui Chuji warns about absence of Ming methods. Where is Ming in your Neidan, ah? If you (by mistake) think that Da Zuo is Ming, then what is Xing? yep, for people who have no fate to learn Neidan. LOL But even Wang Chungyang says explicitly about how to practice it, and it is far from yours "sitting in a motionless calm and silence". It's not even about sitting. Nope. Even more, most of these texts have warnings against "sitting and forgetting". And please answer about why your Zhu Ji is so different from both Ma Yu and Zhang Boduan school, that you're declaring your lineage from. People from there are waiting in impatience

Have you ever heard about Chan Buddhist practices that lead to Arhat state? Maybe you're even aware what Liu Huayang, who was Chan monk, thought about it? Have you read what 6th patriarch said about "sitting and forgetting"? If yes, then for sure you can continue to do whatever you know and don't worry about results

Have you met any of them? I doubt that. Just because almost all realized people in Neidan tradition has been speaking loudly and left a lot for the next generations. Maybe it's better to read something about it first?

It would be so great if it could work! But sorry, it's an illusion. You write "being without thoughts and desires". But Ma Danyang, who shall support that idea based on the quotes you made, he doesn't really share such approach: Moreover, Qiu Chuji says: As we can see, they also write about even more complicated things as just get rid of thoughts. As a person, who learn Ma Danyang school from the current lineage holder of that school, I can give you a small tip: don't rely on separate quotes. Try to catch the complete picture. And if you have doubts, the only way to stop them is to learn from a teacher. I can assure you, that the real practice in this school has nothing in common with idea of "stoping thoughts using meditation". I understand your point, but no, because "cultivating the clarity and attention of mind and spirit" is not the goal and method of Neidan.

It's better to give up Taoist Yoga practice, there are many mistakes even in Chinese version of that book Not exactly, but semen is a physical form of Post Heaven Jing. Some special variant of Pre-Heaven Qi. There are a lot here... 1) Yuan shen is not equal to Yang (Positive) Shen. 2) Shen cannot be converted to Qi (or vice versa). 3) Every moment of life we (humans) spend Yuan Qi to restore Houtian Qi (= Wei Qi, and some other energies neede for our body). 4) Same with Shen: we spend it through the process of consciousness. 5) when Yuan Jing exists, humans can (are able to) give birth. So for the sake of simplicity, we can say that Yuan Qi = Yuan Jing. But their relationships are much more complicated. It's a very basic schema, but it's ok to start

Good Qigong is not harmful for Neigong till a certain level, after which such things are prohibited, because they stop further practice in Neidan. My main point that Qigong is not necessary for Neidan. It's possible to achieve Neidan results using Neidan only

DNA has material form, Yuan Qi is not in material form. But the scale you use is very close to traditional understanding.

yep. Absolutely. I know it's hard to take, but it's true.

Let's see now what realized teachers think about "meditative practices (打坐)". In Zhen Dao Pai, created by Vitalii, it is declared to be Neidan. Also we remember, that Zhen Dao Pai even claims a lineage from Zhan Boduan So now what Zhan Boduan writes about "sitting practices" 打坐: As we see, it's absolutely opposite! "Stupid sitting" - that's what Neidan thinks about "meditation" of any kind! I'm preparing some other quotes from different teachers about what Neidan is and what it is not. Then I'll cover this good question as well.

Absolutely wrong and again just show a total lack of traditional education. Who knows the quotes from Neidan texts that are explicitly against Dazuo as the basis of Neidan? Again there is no Ming practices here, because Vitalii thinks they are the same as Qigong

Again, I know that you have no direct transmission about Liu Huayang text, but where you found anything about "breathing regulation" and "refining heart-mind" and "meditation"? In Chinese text, of course. But honestly you can save your time, because nowhere in Wu-Liu Pai texts such absurd things cannot be said, and it is explicitly said everywhere that breathing, Dao Yin, qigong, meditation, fasting etc are wrong methods in Neidan. Later I will translate and publish such sayings by the current lineage holder, so it won't be possible to fool people this way.

Eva Wong translated some valuable books from Wu-Liu Pai, like Huimingjing. In my opinion, Wu-Liu Pai's books are the most clear to understand by modern readers, because they explicitly cover many "hard" questions. And you are right, all Neidan books are intended to give a direction where to find a teacher, what to ask, how to learn etc, but they are not intended to give out practical methods.

It depends. But when we describe our Neidan curriculum, we have Neidan exercises there, but Vitalii lists only Qigong, and make very absurd theories around that. There is just one way to solve that: agree that it is some Qigong system and stop using Neidan terminology. Especially, when there is no lineage and other necessary attributes of the Neidan school. I talk about Neidan theory, and even declare that there are no Neidan methods in classic books. So no, no methods will be discussed by me, except from the basic theory point of view. It's just prohibited in Neidan. Who will be responsible for all health problems and bad fate after people will start trying all this? And there is no conflict, there is misunderstanding. I don't try to convince somebody that "our methods are the best", and I even couldn't start to talk about our school and methods yet . I try to make people think, ask and compare, so they will be able to concisely choose what to learn. Because that's what my Teacher has done and what really helped many many people, including myself. Not with Neidan. Even with Qigong it's really easy to go off the track and got real problems without a teacher. Vitalii, just this phrase is enough to understand what you can't understand. I can't help with that. The text and theory are Neidan, but the instructions are not. They are for people who wants to practice by books 10 years ago I also thought that I understand Ling Bao Bi Fa and I practised according to my understanding. I was able to understand that it's wrong and stop.

Yang Jing and Yuan Qi are the real reasons why people live and can give life; when Yuan Qi is out - people die. Yuan Shen is a real governor of Yuan Qi, and the reason why people can have a consciousness. People can not directly feel, see and understand Yuan Qi and Shen. Who knows about Xing and Ming and how they are related to Qi and Shen?

I agree about salmon but not about DNA

Can you explain what I missed? Effilang wrote And I don't know any classic texts that support these ideas... Hou Tian is a direct process where Shi Shen directs Qi and spends Jing. Xian Tian is a reverse process, where San Bao are used (=Yuan Jing, Qi, Shen) and they are used in the order that is assigned by Effilang to Hou Tian Xiu. I'd like to know where these ideas are from. I haven't found anything about lineage, I haven't found anything about school books. That's why I'm asking, maybe I really missed something important?

a little

No, there is nothing in common: different goals, different methods Post-Heaven Jing = sexual Jing-essense Post-Heaven Qi = energy we get from breath and food Post-Heaven Shen = mind, consciousness, sub-consciousness Different Qigong sets use mind, imagination, positions, movements, breathing, to follow normal (for this world) Hou Tian process that make post-Heaven Jing, Qi, Shen healthy and powerful, but exhaust Pre-Heaven treasures.

But he didn't said how. It can be used directly (as you do), and indirectly (as it has to be). Why it is necessary to use Xian Tian methods to use Post-Heaven breath? Because without reverse process it's impossible to "find a place where a true breathing takes place". It's axiomatic, it's how Shen-Spirit works, it's how Universe operates, it's described even in books. You just don't mention that, but even here you repeat it over and over again: So you say that using (or by means of) Post-Heaven Qigong you can learn how to "work and feel" (sic!) Pre-Heaven Qi. But such result can be achieved _only_ by Neidan's Xian Tian practices. And Hou Tian cannot help anybody here by definition. That's where you obviously make Qigong equal to Neidan. Same about this list: that's all obvious Qigong experience: There are no such thing as "Usual Dantian", because there is no Dan till some level of achievement. But in modern Qigong it's a common thing. And we see that there are no previous methods, where we can produce Dan. How come, it's a really complicated process, it takes years, but you just skipped that. In Qigong it's possible, but not in Neidan. Dantian has no form, how it can be structured. If we structure something, then it's a Houtian method by definition. Pre-Heaven Qi has no form, so it cannot be found or feel. If we feel, then it's about Post-Heaven Shen-Spirit, so again it's not Neidan. Ask your teacher what 小乘安乐延年法四门 means, why it's a Yangshen(=good old Qigong) practice and why these methods are not Neidan practice at all. And no, even they have no relation to "structirised dantians" and "find original Qi". This a modern Qigong approach, where we can mix everything we like and create a new "system". But you forgot one small thing: results of the methods. Dao teaching is not a philosophy, and it's not a religion. Its core is Neidan, and it pre-dates Daoism. And Neidan is a really well defined science. And all realized teachers of the past highlighted the commonality of ancient methods and their results. Even they highlighted the core similarities between Daoism, Buddhism and Confucianism. For sure, they were "categorical rightness fanatics". But I would prefer their way, and not the modern way, where lack of understanding leads to blindness and tolerance to mistakes. For sure there are many Daoist schools, that just lost Neidan methods, or transformed them into something different. Many of them still use Neidan terminology,but inside there is no real experience, so that is why we see the same terms, but the meaning is absolutely different. And their followers just don't get any results, described in Neidan classics. That is why all successful researches have been started with exploring Daoism from roots (Yijing, DDJ and so on) and not from modern branches. There are thousand of books, Internet, many schools and sects nowadays, lack of translations, and it's very hard to understand what is wrong and what is right. And last thing about Building The Foundation. Yes, in different schools a student can start learning with absolutely different things: Qigong, Dao Yin, washing floors, classic Chinese, remembering texts, participating in rituals etc. But in any traditional school nobody will name that Zhuji - Building the Foundation. Because it shows the ignorance and misunderstanding of the basic principles of Neidan. Btw, speaking about Quanzhen. Quote from your web-site: it looks like you follow Ma Danyang lineage. Then for sure you know the curriculum of Zhu Ji in that school. Why it is so absolutely different from what you write here? Same question about Zhang Boduan: why Zhu Ji in his school has nothing in common with what you write? Preventing questions, yes, our school has really good relationships with both schools, and our students have possibilities to learn from both of them, so we know answers from inside, not just from books.

Now we can compare with how Wang Mu describes Building the Foundation stage in Zhang Boduan's school: As we see, no breathing, no Dao Yin, but explicitly said about inverted process (= Xian Tian) Another quote form him: Again, explicitly about Original = Yuan = Xian Tian I can continue, but I think it's enough. There are a lot in different schools about the first stage and necessity to use reversal Xian Tian methods versus usual Hou Tian practices. In Neidan world it's an axiom. As we see, it's very far from the beginning phases of Qigong schools, even if they insist they have Ming methods (to replenish Yuan Jing) and "genuine" Inner Alchemy.

sorry, but no, it is written differently: So there are only Post Heaven methods in 筑基, and very strange things in Inner Alchemy (I can return to them later). That's just what I mentioned: you use Neidan stage and terminology but give only Post-Heaven methods.

ok, got it. I tried my best and sum up it here: http://thetaobums.com/topic/32430-neidan-vs-qigong/