opendao

So you think that by allowing the insults of the Daoist tradition and by supporting those, who intentionally do that all the time, it's possible to make TDB better? No surprise after a few years here, but still sad to read that... Because to lie about the teaching is the same as insulting it. To twist sacred texts to get fame and promote own ego is insulting for all the real Dao followers. To have no arguments and fool people about Dao is insulting for all its practitioners as well. But I'm happy that the words of Liu Huayang did scratch something in you, because my only desire was to bring a small glance of the traditional Daoism at TDB, as an alternative to various forged and false teachings. And I know for sure many people caught that glance, and I really respect them for that, whatever way or school they follow. Maybe somebody could do it more peaceful, but so far nobody would do it.... Thank for all participants for a nice discussion. I learnt a lot, and hopefully I gave you some food for thoughts as well. --------------------------------------------- Last thing, for Marblehead: In Buddhism the Dharma is the same as in Dao. As in all other true Traditions. The End

Stop inventing. What if Immortals really come to you one day? Just not in dreams, but in reality, ah? They will give you another "harsh lesson" for all the souls you mislead... "But some foolishly take a single saying or half sentence to be the Tao! And from eons ago until now, they have all been the blind leading the blind, ensnaring immeasurable numbers of believers deep into the Nine Springs of Hell, where in the end they cannot lift their heads to see the Buddha's radiance." (written by a real Immortal by the way) That's how it works: fantasies become convictions, beliefs lead to blindness, blindness to advocacy. People become stubborn and destroy own destiny and the life of their followers: "Thus after we are born, we die and after we die we will be born again. When there is birth there will be death. Despite countless cycles of rebirth, we continue to be stubborn and ignorant." Any solution? There is only one: a Teacher. A real physical teacher, with a lineage, with a school, with texts, complete methods and results. So far those who were attentive and not stubborn, could understand what is Dao, and what is "returning to the origin". If such result wasn't gained, then it's not the Dao teaching at all, in spite of terminology, messiah's prophets, smart comments, appealing to the names of Immortals and so on. Only result is the proof. Now we can also understand how far people are from Dao, and how hard is to return...

There are different layers of the texts, but confusion about the meaning is a natural result of no experience.

sometimes it's not confused, sometimes yes... What did you work with in our exercises and "other forms of qigong"? How do you find the similarity?

no, directly it's impossible to a certain high level. So when TCM people speak about yuan qi, they mean something else (zhenqi etc).

Obviously, people who have practised more, get different effects and understanding. Though the described techniques have no direct relation to Wu-Liu Pai school, it is still a preparatory level for Yu Xian Pai, the main difference is in the total effect after learning all methods: other Qigong schools don't really go in this direction so far, because their further methods are different (sitting meditations, yinshen as the topmost goal) and they don't need so deep effect. Also the exercises were made by a person who knew channels and organs from the alchemy point of view, so even when there is some visual similarity with other Qigong systems, the order, details, inner work is very different. At last, it's a traditional system, which is safe to practice. Nowadays it's rare. So far Yu Xian Pai's methods for 5 elements are the most powerful we know (and we know a lot) to prepare the channels and organs for replenishing Yuan Jing. In Wu-Liu Pai preparation is different, and the same effect is received using yuan qi. But we are very happy when people find schools that fit their destiny better. And yes, we are very impressed by results received by students who stay with us for a longer time.

bravo Bindi "In the Universe the most valuable are Dao and De, the most difficult to receive - human, for humans the most difficult - to receive Dao and De in own body." Who can quote Lao Zi to prove that Dao in humans starts as Dao Tai (fetus of Dao)? It's hard, so a hint is probably needed: daotai becomes yangshen, yangshen can do some unusual things, and Lao Zi describes them

ok, let's try from another side: so how "Dao represents itself within"?

Modern people lost direct understanding of what is good and what is bad. Liberal approach, acceptance of any ideas, tolerance to evil - with such baggage it's impossible to learn Dao.

wrong guess, my source is obvious: the traditional school of Dao, that trace back its practical methods and understanding to Lao Zi. So I asked you, and got the response that you're allergic to dust and learn from "internal daoist". Did I understand something wrong? I did say it about other people, because you said you don't read classics at all )) Same as in the phrase "who speaks doesn't know, who knows doesn't speak". It's all about "teaching without words". So you use words, but don't know what they mean? Ok, let's skip it. It changes, but there are principles how humans can change with it. Lao Zi explained that, and this explanation is still valid while human body inner laws are the same. There are some external changes in the teaching since that time, but the principles are the same. "When words are not necessary at all" is better. There is a big difference between teaching Dao to someone and make hints about Dao. In teaching there is no need for words. In guiding to a right direction it's hard to avoid words, especially using texts / internet. Everything has its time to use. those who get to the realm of no words, can use words and explain how to get there... People love to speak about void, but when asked about how to get there start answering various no-sense. Right. And it is the only thing worth to talk about

Thanks Heaven and all saints I haven't got any direct experience with you... Rubbish or not is easy to see: real Immortals wrote books, they left students. That students became Immortals as well. So we have books without rubbish. Then some day dreamer wrote his interpretation of Dao De Jing, where all major ideas were defined upside down. And it became rubbish. How to prove? Simple: by results. If Dao is not obtained, then it's not a Daoist tradition, but something else. I just have no respect to those who fool people about Dao and lie about their holiness. dictionary: holy, sacred, hallowed refer to something that is the object of worship or veneration. holy refers to the divine, that which has its sanctity directly from God or is connected with Him. You said you're not messiah? Well, it seems you're confused about own titles... But I think everything is clear that you're not a holyman, even you self-proclaimed to be so. you said: "Lets use Li Erh's version that he dictated to me in English for the English speaking world." Dictate = "say or read aloud". So fool somebody else by messiah twists.

such a humble messiah... full of rubbish and empty of arguments. You see, you suggest others what to do, but you don't do it by yourself. You claim things, but don't ask questions. But I'm always ask one simple question: what is the source of your knowledge? You said: "internal daoist master". Unholy-man said: "I spoke to Lao Zi in 1986". Others just repeating words from books they don't bother to read carefully... Do you really think such people can teach something comparing to those who understand texts and practically obtained Dao? All the concepts here were questioned many many times by many many people in our school. But we choose carefully who to ask, because in 99% of cases people cannot answer, because they simply don't know. "7 years old child" knows something Zen master doesn't. What is that? No he doesn't teach it. He teaches that Dao cannot be defined fully, and that for practising and teaching it's not needed. Do you see the difference? Dao is a "teaching without words". How it can be possible?

fallacy fallacy fallacy I think you'll pass quicker with your pseudo-alchemy, forged out of mistranslations and fallacies, where even health is impossible. But it's a good trend: every year it's harder and harder for charlatans to prove their methods. How to prove health, if they are sick? How to speak about Dao, if Lao Zi told it's about immortality, but "grandmaster X" has died soon? We live in a very interesting time, when truth comes up quicker then tricksters hope. So we see their hysterical attempts to brainwash people that Neidan is not about health, not about immortality, not about highest possible realization, but about something that nobody can check.

In the first phrase, paradox appears only if we translate dao as a verb "to speak". If we translate it as "to walk", which is more correct, then we get something like: "The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao." (Legge) And no paradox any more... Dao is incomprehensible fully. But it doesn't mean we can't formulate some important basic ideas about it. If it would be impossible, what would be the point for Lao Zi to write any books? Therefore he thought it's possible, and the text were useful at least for his students. Many people think they are close to Dao, but they've never even started... For them to get some words and start looking in a right direction is very helpful. But words are not Dao, and by words it's impossible to obtain Dao.

So do you think that Lao Zi, who did answer when asked about Dao, didn't understand the Way? I hope you don't think so )) The answer is very simple if we know how Dao is taught... "Teaching without words" it's called. And it's very important. Remember: "Dao is unknown source of life". We cannot know it, but we can realize it. All texts and words are just to help people to start the way and follow it, not the Dao itself. Just a completely wrong translation of the first line of DDJ. People repeat it endlessly without any efforts to read the Chinese text... Obviously it has no logic: Lao Zi couldn't claim that Dao might not be spoken and then spoke about it in 81 chapters

that's all hobo learnt from books... "as we, profane people, know it" would be more correctly to say All such ridiculous attempts to prove that Dao can be accomplished based on books raise only one reaction: "if you're so clever, where is your Dao?". So far nothing even close. Go and practice then, don't fool other people by your false views if you got nothing... To quote Liu Huayang is even more funny: they can't compare dates of writing and dates of publishing, don't understand who the book was addressed to, but pretend to understand the Dao from books they don't even bother to read carefully. What an irony, really. Liu Huayang did criticize such talkative charlatans a lot: "But some foolishly take a single saying or half sentence to be the Tao! And from eons ago until now, they have all been the blind leading the blind, ensnaring immeasurable numbers of believers deep into the Nine Springs of Hell, where in the end they cannot lift their heads to see the Buddha's radiance." (same translation)

In learning any Tradition there is no space for blind beliefs.... DDJ 77 天之道，其猶張弓與？高者抑之，下者舉之；有餘者損之，不足者補之。天之道，損有餘而補不足。人之道，則不然，損不足以奉有餘。孰能有餘以奉天下，唯有道者。是以聖人為而不恃，功成而不處，其不欲見賢。 The way of heaven,Is it not like stretching a bow? What is high up is pressed down, What is low down is lifted up; What has surplus (yu yü) is reduced, What is deficient (pu tsu) is supplemented. The way of heaven, It reduces those who have surpluses, To supplement those who are deficient. The human way is just not so. It reduces those who are deficient, To offer those who have surpluses. Who can offer his surpluses to the world? Only a person of Tao. Therefore the sage works (wei) without holding on to, Accomplishes without claiming credit. Is it not because he does not want to show off his merits? (English version by Ellen Marie Chen) So Lao Zi suggests that there is Human Dao (人之道) and he says clearly that it's not the same as Celestial Dao (天之道), but you think it's an error? Well, ok and good luck with that. Btw such distinction cannot "reify Dao". Even if Lao Zi was born as an ordinary human (there are various opinions), he received, practised and obtained the Great Dao. And he taught that by "accumulation of human existence" it's impossible to repeat. Again, just by reincarnating and following the human Dao it's impossible to obtain the Great Dao, it's impossible to get to the stage when "no more following is needed". ----------------------------- I think it's clear that based on various beliefs, rumours, "common sense" and by following natural flow of things it's impossible to obtain Dao. There is a lot about it in texts, but really everybody can look around and realize that in the modern world we see no people who attained Dao. As we'll see later, we even don't know what to look for... When a person obtains Dao and becomes a Sage (shengren), what changes? What is the result of the Dao practice?

no, sage is not an ordinary man and doesn't follow humans Dao. Again wrong direction. Let's step back. There is human Dao and celestial Dao. Lao Zi sometimes named them clearly, sometimes only the context can help to distinguish. Anyway, Daoism teaches how to follow the Celestial Dao, not the mortal road of men.

it could be if it wouldn't be a mistranslation. no, Lao Zi clearly says they are not the same (DDJ 77). There is an important difference. In Neidan texts it's discussed in details as well. It's not Dao that dual, but the relation between humans and Dao. See the difference? The road can be one, but directions are opposite.

it's not a transmission, but misinterpretations of mistranslations. There is Human Dao (Ren Dao) and Celestial Dao (Tian Dao). Being one with the natural principle of things is Human Dao, that's what Dawei tries to be one with. To lost Dao is to lost Human Dao first of all. It means people stop following the changes of Nature, they lost something what allows them to do it. It's not a philosophy principle or some mind concept though. Neidan is just another name for Celestial Dao, and Lao Zi's Great Dao is not the same as Human Dao. Moreover, it's totally opposite. So what is the Celestial Dao then? What realy Daoism teaches to follow? There are clear definitions in Dao De Jing, but people prefer to sing same songs about being one with nature...

People can loose Dao and they do it quite often... See DDJ.

Really funny. Qixue is a basic term in Neidan texts, and quotes are ok. But let's see how this was really translated by lol people during last year paid trolling campaign: 四字凝神入气穴； it's a "gangsta rapped poetry" (sarcasm), but the idea in hobo's translation is different to what is needed to be done here: "coagulate the spirit and let it enter the point of Qi (qixue)". Xue means accupoint, related to the Qi channels in the body. Secret? Not at all. Simple? For those who know. Can be proved by other texts? Easily, even in English. So no thieves, no rats, no holes, no lair, nobody hides there, nothing needs to be dwell there - it's all fantasies of qigong folks and inattentive translators, who make up sense out of nothing, just to confirm own biases and false views. And "see and feel" are not in the Chinese text as well. Also hobo can't count characters and skipped 入. Because he has no idea what enters what and how... We've seen many times, even in this thread, that it's not important if you are Chinese or not, and fluent in Mandarin/Cantonese/other dialects or not, it won't give you anything to understand classics of the alchemy. The only way is a knowledgeable teacher and practice. Sure language is needed, however Wenyan allows very broad range of possible variants, and there is no way for non-initiated profanes to choose a correct meaning, used by the authors. And simple conclusion from such Taoist Texts stories: check every translation on your own.

CIA? Celestial Immortal Agents? I'm afraid to guess what FBI means then...

Right, they are opposite. Also, people can "loose Dao". How is it possible? How people can loose "Dao of physicalization"?

Direct understanding of emptiness-Wu comes from Dao cultivation, not from mind. For the practice, mind is of little value. But this little value defines what you practice or don't practice at the initial stages, that's all. Yes, people change: they are born, grow, collect various experiences, skills, do some work, get some pleasures and sufferings, then die. It's Dao of things. Question: is it the only possibility Lao Zi discussed or there is something else?