opendao

yeah, he will never stop. He is so pissed off with every true word about Dao just because if he accepts it, it will mean that this self proclaimed "Quanzhen master" is nothing. Zero. All his absurd theories, wrong translations, rubbish concepts will become just dust in his own blind eyes. It's much easier to continue to spread shit and scum.

keep trolling, keep lying, keep confirming that every word I said is true about you.

"masters" are not "everyone who is practising neidan". It's crystal clear for everybody except blind retarded morons.

Right, the question for most of the reasonable people here is what results are signs of the correct practice, and what are not. I described some traditional approach. People don't like it because no teachers on Facebook meet such criteria obviously they don't have and will never follow human desires. But immortals should fit into what immortals wrote about immortality, right? Every legit school of Dao has a lineage of xian-immortals. If the lineage is broken, and today there is no one to meet, then there is a big chance that methods are not correct any more. Again you missed something important. I'm not surprised though, you definitely is unable to read carefully. Any texts. Daogong and Dao Shu from Yu Xian Pai school are preparatory methods. Nobody promises that your old fat ass will become just fat again. Nobody says you'll learn it online from immortals. So it looks like you're fooling yourself just to troll others. What are you selling except confusion and geriatric grumbling that all people around are stupid, bad, greedy and so on? If you know nothing and have nothing useful to say, then it's better to keep silence, because obviously your opinion has no value. Neidan is about immortality. If in the school there are no immortals, then the risk to stay in ever confused troll mode is inevitable. There are 2 limits: learning from an immortal directly, and learning from talkative old charlatans like Taoist Texts. Obviously between these 2 limits there are a lot of shades of grey: "teachers" who learnt Dao from immortals, but haven't finished and started to teach own schools based on incomplete methods or wrong understanding. Teachers who are in process of learning the initial steps, but the head of the school encourage them to teach some initial methods they are already good at. And many other situations. But I really believe that it's impossible to learn Dao without understanding what Dao is about. It's a question of intention, it's a question of choice what to learn, where to go, who to speak, how to read, what to ask and so on. "If one does not know to which port one is sailing, no wind is favorable" (Seneca)

It's not the only thing it teaches. And not the most important one. That's correct, but it's one aspect of the relation. What is another one? There are several places where Lao Zi speaks about it.

In all such nice philosophical discussions there is one big problem: they don't take into account what Daoism teaches about various relations, possible between human and Dao. What are they?

probably it's impossible to attain Dao until we stop understanding it just as "Way"...

So Wang Liping teaches that such image with the immortal fetus exiting the body has anything related to the breath, consciousness and body/mind process?

Bu Ren here means that higher virtue is not based on Ren-Humaness principle. Humanness-Ren is how people (should) understand moral and treat each other. So it's a human level. It's a custom. It's a ritual in its core. In contrast, Bu Ren doesn't mean that there is no morality (=amorality), it means that the highest virtue is based on other principles then Ren.

There are some at the point of what I told before, that's why I told what I told before. Other info is confidential or irrelevant (my age). And you're not very attentive, I didn't tell there are any reasons to live very long (in this world). There are more pleasant things to do... I wrote that sick, old and dying teachers don't know Dao. But "young looking old alchemist" is a hint that something is right. Sorry, no pictures and any proofs are not a subject of the open forum. Just because it's the way it is. None of the immortals will chase you with documents dated 1765 to get your attention

This is your position based on your understanding and experience. Teachers thinks differently based on different position and experience. So for you true words bring more harm, for them - more good. Right and wrong don't depend on the perspective for them. Yijing for them is not a book of personal excuses to "wisely" be weak. And so on. Maybe because previous generations wasn't scary to tell the truth?

Yes, it sounded very Chinese for him... not only for him though. Even if it's just a coincidence, it shows parallels very good.

Nice. The alchemy everywhere was based on the same principles. It looks like it was one art long long time ago in the past... What greek poem?

No, it's not the same, though it's about the same process. But the phases are different, and accents are different. Sun, Moon and Fetus, which is Xing + Ming = Daotai in Daoist tradition. On Daoist picture the characters are Jing - Qi - Shen, it's a picture of San Bao: 3 treasures. anyway, it's irrelevant: there is nothing physical in Neidan.

so what do you suggest if it is the case? Lie and say that other schools are complete and good? Twist and say "every school has something to offer"? Say nothing and hide in mountains? Sages prefer to tell truth, if it creates wrong associations for wrong people, then sages look at that as on something unavoidable. They care more about good people. Good people see that the things are not equal, and differentiate clearly.

No. Jing used in Neidan is not a physical substance. And it is of the same kind as the Spirit-Shen and Dao at the end. If Jing is a physical substance, then it's affected by duality, corrupted, not pure, not a "treasure-Bao" and cannot be used in the alchemy at all. Search for "false elixir" and "sexual Jing" to get the difference.

The difference is in 2 merging into one and 3 joining on Daoist picture. The idea is similar, but none of the pictures show any physical things. Tabula Smaragdina

I'm speaking solely about Neidan, where Jindan term is widely used. But the waidan method is similar, ingestion of the powder has the same effect as internal Dao cultivation. Again, it's a popular idea in Daoist texts in schools that have all 3 methods of cultivation.

There are different achievements in Dao cultivation. Depending when person starts, and what is the destiny, probably only some partial results are possible. The speech was about high level masters and how not to be fooled by charlatans, who sell us just "spiritual methods" because they have nothing else to offer. The full system is almost lost everywhere, water downed, almost extinct, but it's not a reason to stop looking for the complete truth. Yes, it's possible to speed up some levels, even die on some levels to continue in new life, but it's not considered as a pure method, but as an incomplete method. Ancient Dao was very precise in its technology, and the condition of skin or hairs don't depend on the goal you set, but solely on the method you practice. That's how it's explained in a school, where such results exist, so probably it has some authority to share.

Yes, I heard this phrase about Western alchemists many times... Still waiting for any results compared even to Waidan... Keep us informed, but don't rush to make parallels between 2 teachings you only read books about. it's true. But it's just an excuse to not searching.

no, there is no such confusion. Great Dao is Jindan: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/40441-waidan-and-early-neidan-vs-later-neidan/?p=673423

The phrase describes the same result as what Neidan texts describe as tianxian. Master of the Jindan tradition teach that early Daoism didn't imply that merging with Dao is equal to "destruction, dissolution into nothingness" as you wrote elsewhere. And alive masters of the Jindan tradition (The School of Great Dao of the Golden Elixir of Wu Chongxu and Liu Hua Yang) teach that the last stage of the alchemy is called 练虚合道 - "melting of emptiness and unity to the Dao". -------------------------------- Same about elixir as a "physical thing". You wrote: "The idea that either of them is trying to convert a physical thing into a non physical thing eg chi is incorrect." It's incorrect, right. Neidan doesn't work with physical substances on any level. You: "I meant is that the Jindan the naidan practitioner is trying to brew within himself is a physical thing just like the elixir the waidan practitioner is trying to make." This is not correct. Jindan is not a physical thing, and its ingredients are not physical either, but exactly what you are trying to say is not Jindan: xiantian jing-qi-shen. What Neidan texts you base your strange opinions on?

so you haven't met but think that by books you can become one? I have sad news for you: in the history of Neidan / Jindan / Dao cultivation there was no one who could do that. Many tried, many are trying now, but it's all waste of time. No teacher with results - no school producing such results. Time is yours.

really good point. The inner sincere willingness to help people is the "virtue"-De necessary to find a teacher and attain Dao. And Buddhist words are good, many Daoist masters used them in this context. I don't usually like to quote myself, but I feel it has more sense to write it here: ---------------------------------- we need to define, what is happiness really? Buddhism says directly: "no struggling". So the idea is to save all beings out of struggling. Daoism is more moderate about it, but in Dao De Jing the idea is similar: the king can save its people through own Dao cultivation, meaning he has to achieve the level when his own De saves people out of struggling. The same idea is in Orthodox Christianity: "Save yourself, and thousands will be saved around you" (Seraphim of Sarov). How it can be possible? The answer is simple: the Dao cultivation grows De and makes it miraculous. That's the only way to help people and make them really happy. ---------------------------------- We've discussed the meaning of De and "virtue" somewhere. That's how the ethics and De are really connected.